[Stonehenge]

I was introduced last fall to a new type of product - I think it was called Enviro-Bond. I've used polymeric sand with some success, and was the first in my market to be using it. But this new stuff was organic.

This Enviro stuff was a little bit different. Where the idea of polymeric is that once wetted it locks up tight as a drum, this organic stuff stayed somewhat flexible, so it could move if the pavers moved. If the paver's heaved a bit in winter, once this stuff was re-wetted it'd settle back into the joint and harden up again. It'd happen every time it rained.

I saw some test photos of shower sprays pouring on the stuff on a vertical surface and it didn't look like it was washing away, so it seemed promising.

The only thing I wonder about is the breakdown. If it's organic, it's going to break down. I wonder how long it takes, and if there's any smell associated with the break down.

Anybody have any experience with this?


This discussion has been included in the site beginner's brick paving page.

You can also read a detailed article about polymeric sand.

[Kirk]

I can understand your worry with any organic product. Our past experience shows that there are a lot of problems that can occur with some organic materials, basically the longevity of their existence in the form they were intended. With any product, the question we must ask is, what material will last the longest with the results and look we desire. Not to go out on some sort of scientific rant, but if we look at products designed activated with say water, I suppose this product would be pervious to water and eventually break down quicker with rain. Of course this still is yet to be proven. The product I am talking about it made with non-water based components that resist the destruction of such a force. Working on lakefronts most of my life, I found that water is one of the most under estimated of the elements. Water is incredible in its power. As I was talking about at the beginning of this reply, there isn't really anything that doesn't break down over time. The answer is in what will last the longest. I am sure the polymeric sand lasts a considerable amount of time. Although I personally haven't used this product you are speaking of, I can assure you that product I mentioned in the other forum, I have used and I swear to it's abilities to satisfy you and your customers.

There is nothing wrong with trying different products; it is how learn what works best for each of us. I do hope you get a chance to work with the sand binder that I am speaking of. I know you will find it exceptionally fun and easy to work with, with a wonderful rich look at the end.

Kirk

[Stonehenge]

I don't mind a scientific rant at all - understanding the science behind these new products is half the fun!

One thing I'm curious about - this product you describe - (Immoblast, is it?) - does it result in joint sand that is stiff, or is there some flexibility left in it?

One of the concerns I have with the polymeric is that I do not believe it has any flexibility after it dries. Seeing that most often we are installing pavers over a dry-laid base (which in engineering terms is considred a flexible pavement), having a rigid joint sand would not appear to be completely desirable. Something that would have a little flex in it would seem to be the ideal.


Jeff

[Kirk]

Yes, Immobest does have give. It is made with natural oil, and can take some movement and expansion. Of course, if you don't know how to lay your tiles apropriatly and they do move 3-4", Immobest will not expand that far, of course nothing will...will it ? Nah, Immobest is the best product I've ever used in all these years. You will absolutely love it, and can make a fortune, if you price it right to your customer. We have people in Germany, that own companies, servicing only Immobest. Taking out old grout and install Immobest instead.

[diginahole]

I don't have any experience with Enviro-Bond but I do recall speaking with them at a trade show last winter. I believe the only reason I opted to continue to use poly sand was the availability. My supplier doesn't yet offer Enviro-Bond. If I recall correctly, Enviro-Bond would not sell just the additive to be mixed by the end user and at that time did not have bagged product avilable as they were marketing it more along the line of a sabilized walkway/ driveway pavement, although they were planning a jointing sand in the future.

I have had the opportunity to lift up pavers jointed with poly and can assure you it does remain very flexible other than a relativly thin crust where it exposed to the air. The sand beneath the crust is moist, sticky and could generaly be compared to sponge rubber in texture and flexability. It is significantly more difficult to remove the first few pavers jointed with poly than if they were jointed with regular brick sand.

I used poly sand to joint random flagstone and was less than thrilled with the results. The thin ( and wide 1/2" to 1") crust could easily be washed away with a garden hose only a few months after completion. I would not reccomend poly for a wide joint situation.

[Stonehenge]

I think Enviro-Bond now sells there stuff in bagged form - too hard to try to truck millions of tons of premixed sand and stone everywhere. But if I recall correctly, it's big bags. Not like a butter tub size, where you could mix it in a w/b. For that matter, I'm not keen on adding a step to my installs - would prefer to have all premixed stuff.

And you're right Digin - if you look at their website, the only pics they have are of gravel drives they used this material on.

Kirk - I wouldn't expect the material to bridge a 3" gap. We would never even have more than a 1/2" gap, and even then only in places when there was an odd cut around an obstruction.

Though I like the idea of using either product with some screenings to use in joints of flagging, bridging 1-2" gaps. That might be nice.


BTW - Digin - Welcome!!

Jeff

[Kirk]

You missed what I was saying. You can have a 3" gap with Immobest. I was talking about actual movement of a tile being 3" at one time and no substance could take that margin of error. We used Slate and granite mixed together to give an original look and some of the gaps reach a width of 3" some actually have 4". If you would like I can take some pictures using the digital camera tomorrow so you can see the look we wanted to achieve. It has a nice option threshold and can be used in many different ways. I don’t know if I would trust a product like the one you mentioned above if they claim it stays soft at the core. Seems that, if at the surface it gets stiff, someday I imagine the core will harden too. Doesn’t sound too pleasant. Imagine a sand filter block that is very strong that you can poor water through. Immobest is the adhesive that would serve the purpose of holding the sand grains together without creating a block or seal the water out. This nice for two purposes, 1 is to eliminate standing water, which reduces surface accidents and a few other problems caused by standing water. 2 it allows the sub-surface to dry quickly which helps reduce settling and freeze uplift. In combination with an aquatic-permeable underground your surface will retain its look most likely longer than you will breath. This technology is not new by any means. Not everyone has mastered it. Actually it more or less is a trade that people are too lazy to study. If you want great paths that last centuries you should really stop to look at the way they were built centuries ago. This is why back home in Germany they force you to, in order to open a business, to be fully educated before allowing you to do any business. This keeps the old traditions alive and helps new technology be introduced to fulfill the expectations of what was long ago, pure unadulterated quality of workmanship.

[Stonehenge]

Kirk, I did catch your drift, but re-reading my post makes it sound like I didn't. I realize you meant movement of 3".

I met a couple a little while back where the wife grew up in Germany. They told me about the apprentice program there, and how they have to dress a certain way signifying their apprenticeship (I think this was a carpenter or mason), and that they have to do a certain amount of work, and I think they had to do it inexpensively as well. In fact, maybe they didn't get paid for it at all.

Sounds charming.

As for those in the US - unfortunately, we don't have any flexible pavements to study that are that old. There are some that are 100 years old or more, and I've seen and photographed a few, but they are in pretty rough shape.

[Kirk]

Yep, the apprentice program is set up for every trade from the baker, mason, to the candlestick maker. heh heh, sorry couldn't resist. They do get paid very modestly. I think the best roads were built in Rome. There are so many original roads still being used there. It is rather tough to find really good documentation illustrating their practices. I know the libraries most likely have books that cover the subject. It can take a lot of time though. The nice thing is that there are books that cover some idea that didn't work out very well and ideas that we never even thought of that have be brushed aside with all the new products available like the cookie cutter interlock blocks. I guess I'm just not into the Lego look, but that's just me.
I was planning on attaching some pictures of the floor here, but when I went to turn on the camera the battery was dead. I'll let it charge for a couple of hours and try again..

[Kirk]

Here are some of the pics I promised,





My wife completely installed the floor herself. This is the look we were aiming for anyway. I hope the pictures don't take a long time to load for everyone. Let me know and I will drop a few out.
Kirk

[Stonehenge]

I've got cable internet, so it's no sweat for me.

That's a nice floor! And those look to be some sizable pieces of stone you installed (wait - your wife installed). That looks like a retail store - is that what your WWW link is to? Looks like a neat place!

[Kirk]

heh, I told her I would help, but, NOPE,, she wanted to do it herself this time. Think she felt guilty cause I had to build everything else.

There are some pretty large pieces of slate there. She did it though.

yep, this is a retail store that offers arts and gifts from British Columbia, which, as it turns out, is a bit of a long story, but here it is in a short;
We packed our belong'ins up about 2 1/2 years ago and headed out east to Niagara Falls to open the store up,, been an interesting trip so far *cough* *cough*.. Anyways, our intended goal was to start a retail store that supports our artist friends back west. It's done pretty good for us so far, we were voted one of Niagara Falls Greatest Places to Visit. We still have a lot of work to do. The website www.outofthewoods.ca has been a tough job in itself, just getting up and running took quite a while between everything else and now had to be taken down to be upgraded to prevent security issues. The store portion of the website should be back and running by the end of next week.

Hackers can be such a pain.