[TrickyDick]

I have to admit that I say "So what?" a lot. Well actually I just say "So?" but it's the same thing and I say it for exactly the reason Agla said. It means that whatever you just said didn't seem to advance to the arguement you were trying to make and I'd like you to better connect the dots. Or maybe just shut up if there aren't any dots to connect.

I think that landscaping has value in different ways to different people. It has practical value to everyone. They want grass where their kids can play, a fence to keep them from getting hit by a car. They want the yard not to flood. Maybe they want privacy or a place for a vegetable garden or a place to park. Or maybe they want to increase a property's value for resale. For some people this is where ends. They don't care what the fence looks like or how you get the water out of the yard. Those people are going to want the cheapest way to accomplish the objective and that's that. If a concrete channel is the cheapest way to effectively reroute the stream and the client says that is what they were thinking you get a chance to say "well what about creating a beautiful meandering blah blah blah with plants and the animals and it will be wonderful for everyone and the earth, etc. etc....". If they say "I don't really care about any of that...unless that will be cheaper I just want to do the simplest thing." then no amount of BS is likely to make them care. Some people just don't know any better and you can educate them on what you percieve as the benefits of looking at things differently but if after that they still don't care then the game's over. At least for me...I'm not much of a salesman. You can't quantify the value of subjective things like aesthetics or a connection to nature or the morality of environmentalism. Either people care or they don't.

Most people do care about aesthetics to some extent. I think the majority of average people want things to look nice but they have limited means and the things they need...the parking and the place for the kids to play...take precedence over the indulgence of a beautiful garden.

Most of our work comes from the people who are willing to spend more on the aesthitic part of things, either because they have money and it's not a big deal for them to do so or because they really do value the enjoyment they get from the natural part of their world and are willing to invest in that just as much as in solving their practical problems.

And then there are those who look at landscape as a form of art and are willing to pay a lot of money for the right person to create a unique piece of art in their garden.

Every person has different values. You can educate people and try to inspire them but you can only move people so much.

[Malrex]

My father-in-law is an accountant and has 0 ability to comprehend aesthetics or the benefit of landscaping. I just don't understand that at all. I've done quite a bit of work in his yard mainly because my mother-in-law values such things...she gets excited, he could care less. I sorta find it amusing.

I have a master's in Environmental Science, so I usually can go off about the benefits of a nice landscape and its relation to nature (especially a concrete channel vs. a nat. stream). I tone it down depending on my "crowd", but some people just don't get it. I usually try to put myself in people's shoes so I can understand where they are coming from better, but again..some people don't get it (or I don't get them)--and that's ok! You just got to do the best you can and believe in what you say.

[agla]

TrickyDick has the same view that I have on the value of landscaping.

Different people value it for different reasons. That is reality in the real world. After you get out of school you'll figure out that your professors are professors and not out in the real world because they bought into too many generalized philosphies that their professors told them.

Your number one mission as a designer/LA is to try to understand as much as possible what your individual client values both in his general existance and specifically to do with the landscape you are about to design. Then you have to apply those values, introduce things to the project that support those values, and do your best to show your client that everything you are doing supports his values. Then you will never hear any client say "So What"!

If you come out of school with values dictated by someone living in "Professor Land" you will be ignoring the clients values and replacing them with what is often idealistic wishes of what people value which may not support your clients values at all. Then you will hear "So What" a lot.

Read any university's description about what a landscape architect does and you will see that it is riddled with idealistic nonsense. If the people who are in the position to pay for a landscape architect read and believed them, they would not hire us. We get hired by people who are trying to exploit a site to their best advantage who are not always GreenPeace and the Nature Conservancy. They pay you to understand their needs, match them up to the regulations that are imposed upon them, and then to the realities of the site. Some of them will have strong personal values that favor the environment or social issues, but some will not.

You won't last long if you are trying to change your client's values. However, you can show them how some of these things can support their values when they actually do.

Whatever your own values are, you have to remember that when you are engaged in a project you can bend it a bit to support your values even if the project as a whole does not. If you cling to your personal values over your client's, you won't be hired or you'll be let go. The project will go on without you and you will walk away with your principles, but you won't be able to moderate it at all with your values. You have to be part of the team in order to have influence. You won't be part of the team unless you are actively supporting the teams goal.

The river project seems to be one where they are giving you the false impression that you will are in control of the values that go into a project. A great excercise, but the wrong attitude to carry into the private sector. Go to ASLA and read resumes. You will see that a lot of students get brain washed by professors to think that they will be hired because of the values that they stand for on social issues and the environment.

[tfld]

Cool. I think this is a question that I'll probably carry into every project with me and always struggle to answer. For myself, the balance, as some alluded to, must be maintained between science and art. I feel the best design is a combination. As a student of LA nearing graduation, I've come to appreciate the beauty and complexity of a well-developed landscape problem/solution.

I think I've only just begun to be able to answer this and understand the true value of landscape beyond pure aesthetics. The point of asking the question here, which now seems moot, was to get a response from the contractors.

Thanks for the responses.

[GLAN]

Everytime I am asked......So what?.......I find myself rambling on about the personal factor, aesthetics, environmental impact, investment value, return on investment and so on...........I've learned that once I see their eyes becoming glazed over and I have lost their attention, I quickly change subject.

Some times if I sense an attitude and or sarcasm....I don't even bother.

I am always learning to not waste time.........and words