[jwholden]

Around my part of the country a thing called Patterned concrete is taking off. There are three companies doing it and apparently they are making it look less like concrete every day.

I always tell people when making proposals that concrete is going to be cheaper than pavers but that pavers (1) look better and (2) hold up better in the long run. However, I recently lost two jobs to patterned concrete and the second I lost was a bit unnerving.

The gentlemen told me the concrete guy looked at his back yard and shot him a rough quote of around $2400 for a 14 x 10 patio. Thats over $17.00 a square foot. Where is the savings? Am I pricing pavers to cheap at $15.00 a square foot?

It seems to me that patterned concrete is more or less equal to the cost of pavers and I need to work on my sales skills. Perhaps I will start keeping a piece of spalled and cracked concrete in the back of my truck to show my prospective customer at the initial meeting (he he).

How does the price of patterned concrete compare to pavers in your area?

[Lanelle]

I don't know about the price but I do know that the finishes are applied to the concrete so its only a matter of time until the finish fails, fades or otherwise looks bad. And the problem of cracking still looms. Oh, here it's sometimes called Stampcrete.

[Stonehenge]

That stuff is all over the place here, and we rarely lose work to them.

My pitch?

"For the same or less money, you can get the real thing. Why pay more for the imitation?"

They've made improvements over the last 2 decades, but even so, in 3 years the color will not be anywhere close, and with the stamping or patterns, they are creating thousands of weak points where the concrete can and will crack. 15+ years ago they would pour regular concrete and add pigment on top. Now 1 pigment is pre-mixed, a second is gingerly tossed on top before pressing the pattern in. They will both fade in time.

[jwholden]

Not to be on the wrong side of the fence, but I swear my patio which I installed last August is lighter than when installed. I probably should have upsold myself on a sealer.

[Stonehenge]

Traffic on concrete pavers can wear pigment off of the aggregate stones closest to the surface. If the aggregate is light colored, the pavers will look lighter.

Sealer helps provide a buffer for that traffic, and the wearing of the pigment.

[Rex Mann]

In the war against "fancy concrete" I use the following in selling:

It still is concrete no matter how they dress it it up
It loses its skid resistance when pigment and finishing is applied
Being mixed on site it is very dependent on experience of installer and the weather
Samples shown rarely look like the finished product

Peace,

Rex

[agla]

Does anyone use clay bricks? If you are in an area where they are historically correct, I think that you will find a very willing upscale client. That is when you can be comparing the "real" thing to concrete pavers.

Concrete pavers are not well received in the upscale market here because people perceive them as imitation brick or imitation stone. ... which is really what most of them are.

If there is no very heavy load, why not go for the real thing?

[Stonehenge]

When I was working in the Detroit area, we had never done a clay paver project. Ever. It was a new thing for me when I moved to Wisconsin.

Unfortunately, while the people here have an appreciation for clay, they many times do not have the budget.

Agla, I would bet in your market that the upscale clients are more sensitive to the historical use of the materials, living in an area where there are so many vintage homes.

The material appreciation or sensitivity seems less in Detroit, and in Wisconsin, even though they do like clay pavers here.

[Tim]

A couple other concrete disadvantages that paver installers might want to touch on with their potential clients are: 1. Stamped concrete is commonly dyed by hand casting pigments. This powder becomes airborne and adheres to everything. One serious problem area for this pigment is the caulking around windows and doors. I know of one contractor that had to completely reside and caulk an entire building because of this. (Not me, thank God!) 2. Concrete contractors doing stamped commonly track or slop concrete onto other existing surfaces leaving eye sore areas for the home owners.

An After thought- Concrete will pit if you put salt on it in the winter, do pavers suffer to some extent as well?


Stamped or patterned concrete is going from $8-$14 a sqft here.

Tim

[BJR]

Stamped and stencilled concrete was appeared here in Aus a long time ago.

When it first appeared about 50% of drives were brick paved (we mainly use clay pavers), now only about 10% are paved.

Stamped concrete has fallen out of favour becaure of the slip and ware factor, but, stencilled concrete has taken over. The new surface of stencelled concrete is over 50MPA. We can take our machines onto them and not leave a mark. I tis also slip resestant.

The cost is app $60/sq metre compared to app $80/sq metre for pavers, depending on the cost of the paver.

Specialised brick paving contractors were many about 15 years ago, now there would only be 1/3 of them left. Most had to diversify to keep going, or just got out of the business all together.

[Tim]

Is a Purrington Paver considered a clay paver? We acquire these on a regular basis from tearing up streets. We have sold them in the past for up to $2 each. But I have heard that thy have fetched as much as $3 each if they are in primo condition down South. What do they go for in other people's markets? Tim

[Stonehenge]

Tim, are those the very thick, extremely heavy brick that many times have the mfg name embossed or pressed into the brick?

They are so rare around here that nobody even knows what to do with them when they find them, so many times they are 'finders keepers'.

If you had the yard to store them, I'd sell 'em for $3/brick. Where else you gonna get those?

[Stonehenge]

That stenciled stuff has begun to show up around here in the last 5 years. It is only 1/16 - 1/8" thick, applied to the top of existing concrete, and leaves a very nice finish.

However, with clients interest in authenticity, that still does not seem to be much of a threat to our local market. At least not yet.

[jwholden]

I have not dabbled into anything but paver pavers. Is a clay paver anything different than the bricks I see some people selling? I gave a bid for 'real brick' pavers once and the only thing I remember was they told me to put a piece of plywood over them before I compacted.

[Stonehenge]

Some people call clay 'real brick' (I'm sure most everyone in Agla's neck of the woods does ). Are they any different? I'd say yes.

Many times they are kiln fired, which makes them like snowflakes - no two are the same, as they twist and bend in the heat of the kiln. Makes them harder to keep straight bond lines for. As for compacting, you oughta be using a urethane pad on your compactor anyway, so the plywood isn't necessary. Not to mention it'll take less time to throw on that pad than use plywood.

You have to make sure it is a clay paver, and not a solid clay face brick (though we've installed those a few times as pavers) - those are face brick that were not designed or mfgd to withstand the abuse a pavement must, and may likely fail in time.

Some big brands here - Pine Hall, Endicott (just came into this market), Whitacre-Greer (but nobody supplies them anymore - too brittle - they crack and pop if you look at them funny), Glen-Gery, Pacific Clay...I'm sure that regionally there are many mfgs of clay pavers, but those are the ones I've seen around here. I believe Glen Gery even began offering circle kits - I never sold one, but wanted to.

One beautiful clay mfg is Yankee Hill. Simply gorgeous brick, but they cost a small fortune.