[secondnature]

Hearing alot about pervious concrete here lately.

Has anyone on this site installed such a material? I am wondering about the stability and also the aesthetics of this stuff.

Any experience out there? What is the cost difference btwn it and regular concrete?

Thanks!!

[Ston Wurks]

Here's a site that might help you with some answers.

I am sure there is some good information at the concretenetwork also.

I have not spec'd this material/paving yet, but I am for anything that improves drainage and lessens runoff.

[GLAN]

I have a friend that bought into what myself and others think is a pyramid type scheme.......He bought into a company called permapave or perma pave.

Similar stuff that Ston provided a link to.....though it was made from aggregate....

I easily picked a pebble off the surface.....

I don't see it working at all...........In fact I can see it exploding where you have freeze - thaw patterns in weather.



Personaly.........what I like better is the honeycombed pavers......you know the ones that have the 2"x2" or so open squares

[PaverDrew]

I don't work with it, but was invited to see an installation by a friend who works in concrete. It screeded like normal concrete, appeared to have less liquid and more of the finer aggregates ( 1/8" to 1/4"). The reps from the concrete company said it is formulated to be as strong as a normal driveway mix. It's appearance was similar to an exposed aggregate finish. One downfall for this job though, the city required the driveways to be poured before grading and soil stabilization took place. It has been three months since the first one went in, and it is showing signs of clogging due to fines washing over it during rain storms.

[GLAN]

Good point Drew..........

Sediment will settle into it no matter what.........ever notice gravel mulch applied over fabric..given time there is a build up of sediment on top of the fabric

[Ston Wurks]

Sediment washing over and clogging-not good. You guys are right this would be a serious downfall for the product.

Freeze-thaw issues would also keep it out of a lot of the USA.

Might as well stay with the pavers that allow the run-off . . . cost issues?

[GLAN]

Ston

That site with the parking lot picture........I was thinking about that.

I now remember a tree spraying friend of mine had something exactly like that done for his driveway a long time ago......I saw it..............Looks Awesome....

A couple years back....after having not been at this guys home for years....I asked him about it.........His response was.........."Don't bring that up".....or "Don't ask"

I was shocked at his response.........and never spoke of it again.


for location reference........I am on Long Island.....NY

[Ston Wurks]

Originally Posted by GLAN

Ston

That site with the parking lot picture........I was thinking about that.

I now remember a tree spraying friend of mine had something exactly like that done for his driveway a long time ago......I saw it..............Looks Awesome....

A couple years back....after having not been at this guys home for years....I asked him about it.........His response was.........."Don't bring that up".....or "Don't ask"

I was shocked at his response.........and never spoke of it again.


for location reference........I am on Long Island.....NY

Wow, sounds like he was pretty unhappy with the product/outcome.

[GLAN]

The only thing I could think happened........one winter........it exploded

[plakman]

Originally Posted by GLAN

I have a friend that bought into what myself and others think is a pyramid type scheme.......He bought into a company called permapave or perma pave.

Similar stuff that Ston provided a link to.....though it was made from aggregate....

I easily picked a pebble off the surface.....

I don't see it working at all...........In fact I can see it exploding where you have freeze - thaw patterns in weather.



Personaly.........what I like better is the honeycombed pavers......you know the ones that have the 2"x2" or so open squares

[plakman]

How did your friend make out with his permapave investment.?????? I have a chance to also invest in it but it almost sounds too good to be true....

[site]

We did one job with it so far. There will be more-even though I am not totally thrilled with it. The demand is growing by the minute. Our job was completed in November. We subbed out the pour and did the rest ourselves. This job is an entrance to a hospital. The folks at the hospital called it experimental right from the beginning. Other than clogging when filled with fines an spalling almost from day one there is another problem. Ice melt doesn't work. it melts down through the ice then all the brine drains through the pores in the concrete. Once it's icy it stays that way for a long time.
Now for the good points- in New Hampshire all new projects have to deal with their storm water on site. That means if you want a big parking lot you need a big detention pond. Land is expensive- especially good commercial land. If a developer can spec. porous concrete and avoid building a detention pond that means he can make do with a smaller site. Next- New Hampshire is changing the law about building near water. Within cerain peramiters pourous surfaces are all that are allowed- No more paver patios at the beach, and no more asphalt driveways. Sure the stuff if flawed, but it's going to be big anyways.

[Uni Bob]

I have had some experience with the pervious pavements. The pavers typically work out very well. I currently have 40,000sq ft installed in Milwaukee and another 200,000sq ft going in this season.

A couple of things to consider..heavily..

*These systems NEED engineering. The base is key, but very dependant on the soils and other site conditions. That being said there are some "typical" cross sections for residential use, but be carefull.

*While the pavement may not require maintanence, the permeability will. I believe we had a quote at some point for 60,000sq ft to have the top 1/2" of aggregate taken out of the void and it was going to cost under $1,000.00, however that didn't include sweeping new chip into the voids. This will bring the system back up to 100% flow rate. How often this needs to happen depends on how quickly it clogs. In the 5 or 6 years we have had these pavements in place I am just hearing of remediation needing to take place (as of yet it hasn't been nessicary).

The pavers pretty much just are a "face" for the system underneath..just a quick example (and again..this doesn't replace engineering)...for residential you would need approx. 12" of base..all clear angular gravel..start with an 1 1/2" gradation for 3-4 inches..then a 3/4" clear angular on top. Instead of sand for the bedding layer (1") you would use a 7 -10mm chip, which is used as the infill as well.

Talk to your local manufacturer for any assistance with the community and/or engineers. These systems are fantastic for water quality, temperature and for reducing runoff. The gravel in the system essentially cleans and cools the water. There are plenty of test results out there to back all this up, but again..grab that from your local supplier.

[plakman]

So has anyone actually used PermaPave? I think they are imported from Australia

[Squizzy Taylor]

Originally Posted by plakman

So has anyone actually used PermaPave? I think they are imported from Australia

PermaPave sample photos

In Western Australia (most areas) all stormwater must be retained on site. The most common method is to use concrete or plastic soakwells.

I haven't seen PermaPave here in the West.