[johnkeegan]

I need a few more days to finish my last project of the year and it involves a rather long stream, multiple falls and a pond. Question is, what kind of succuss have you had using the foam sealant typicallly used, when the temp falls below freezing. The tech guy at Aquascape said it's OK but I rather hear it from someone without a vested interest in selling pond products. Thanks.

[John Palasek]

Originally posted by johnkeegan
I need a few more days to finish my last project of the year and it involves a rather long stream, multiple falls and a pond. Question is, what kind of succuss have you had using the foam sealant typicallly used, when the temp falls below freezing. The tech guy at Aquascape said it's OK but I rather hear it from someone without a vested interest in selling pond products. Thanks.

Aquascape's foam is fine and I have never had a problem with it in any weather. The only problem with their foam is the cost.

If I'm foaming an area that will be covered by rocks or otherwise not seen, I just use regular everyday insulating foam. I like something called "Great Stuff" and I usually get it at Home Depot.
It's not black, (it's sort of yellowish white) which is the ONLY difference between it and Aquascapes foam other than the less-than-half-price cost. Like I said, if it's not going to be seen, then it really doesn't matter what color it is, right?

I usually save the can of black foam I get with the Aquascape kit for use in high visibility areas of a water feature. But for foaming under things like weirs or large rocks, Great Stuff works just fine. In fact in a pinch, I've even used Great Stuff "out in the open" and I just disguise it with pebbles or other small rocks.

As far as "sealing" is concerned, no foam is actually a sealant, not even Aquascape's. It just "encourages" water to go one way or another and in some cases, I actually leave a small gap so that water can leak to completely drain a streambed when the feature isn't running so as not to encourage mosquitos.

Like I said, any outdoor-rated foam is good, not just Aquascape's.




-JP

[Stonehenge]

I agree with what John said.

[zullo-design]

Ditto to everything John said, any insulating foam is fine in this weather, it just takes a few more minutes to harden. If you have a hilti dealer near you you can buy a case of their foam which is yellow and their cleaner and both are cheaper than the Aqauscapes, Im not sure if you guys are using the Pro(hilti gun) foam or the stuff in the can with the nozzle you attach but either way the off brand is cheaper, and the color doesnt matter because I usually throw small gravel dust and dirt onto it while its wet or paint it brown if I cant hide it.

[Hamons]

The gravel in the foam trick works really well. There is also black foam online that you can buy cheaper -- but in reality -- for most jobs -- I just pick up a few cans of black foam from my pond dealer when I buy everything else for a job.

Not worth it to save a few dollars here and thre for me.

[John Palasek]

Originally posted by Hamons
The gravel in the foam trick works really well. There is also black foam online that you can buy cheaper -- but in reality -- for most jobs -- I just pick up a few cans of black foam from my pond dealer when I buy everything else for a job.

Not worth it to save a few dollars here and thre for me.

I know that the cost of a few extra cans of black foam isn't going to break the bank. But it's the idea that Aquascape charges a ridiculous price for the very same thing that every builder uses on a daily basis and the only difference is that Aquascape's foam is black. Maybe it's just the idea that they're nickel & diming people on this stuff that gets me. I mean, don't they make enough money on everything else? Is a "Standard" Biofalls tub REALLY worth $400? Hell, that's more expensive than some of the pumps they sell. So do they have to bang you on the foam as well?

I don't know about where you are, but here on Long Island, Aquascape foam goes for around fifteen bucks a can while Great Stuff sells for about $6.95. So, since I only need the black foam for areas that show, and since the heaviest applications are usually under big rocks or weirs, I use the Great Stuff for those and the black foam where it matters.

It's not the money, it's the principle. Aquascape has gotten very expensive in the last few years because they're basically the only game in town when it comes to pond kits and I think it's gone to their heads and they're milking it for every penny they can. They're beginning to alienate a lot of people around here and it won't be long before guys are inventing things to replace "genuine" Aquascape components and only buy a pump or some other single thing from them.

Here's a good one: (and again I don't know about other parts of the country), but here if I want a simple one-page handout from Aquascape to give out to clients and contacts, I have to pay fifteen cents a copy for them.

Are they nuts?

Meanwhile, I can get dozens of full color multi-page brochures from every single paver manufacturer, deck component manufacturer, equipment manufacturer and they're free for the taking. Is Aquascape using gold dust in their ink or what?

Aquascape does indeed make a good product, but a can of spray foam insulation shouldn't be almost three times the cost just because it's from Aquascape. Just like in our own businesses there's making money and there's greedy and there's a fine line between the two.



OK, that's it for the rant!



-JP

[LandArts]

I've only used the black pond foam once and I wasn't crazy about it. Didn't seem as dense or flexible as the Great Stuff and took much longer to cure. IMO the black color doesn't look natural. I've been buying cases of the Stuff off Ebay for about half price. We use camo spray paint to color it and plain old rubbing alcohol to clean up before it cures.


www.land-arts.net

[Hamons]

I totally agree about aquascapes. The black foam I buy is not aquascapes brand -- it is some other off brand that my suppplier carries -- i think its about $9/can -- still too much but....

There is no way I would ever buy a $400 biofalles. or... the real kicker is there bog stuff -- those snorkel systems. They are sure proud of tier overpriced drain pipe.

I'm not even sure if I would go as far as to say they make a god poduct -- I think their pumps are junk and i think everything else is so - so.

What they do sell well is there system.

[TrickyDick]

I'm not a very experienced pond guy but after my first Aquascapes misadventure I found Pondliner.com (Unit Liner Co.)and will not go near aquascapes again. They sell pond kits and components from 5 or 6 different manufacturers, the sales and tech staff are helpful and they're half the price of aquascapes. And black waterfall foam is $7.50 a can...$7 by the case. I'm not paying double for black foam but I'll pay an extra 50 cents all day long.

In defence of Aquascapes though...all they've done is market a product brilliantly. Why shouldn't they charge as much as possible for their products when people are still buying them? Eventually every contractor on the planet is going to realize that they are not the only game in town and that they can get better products cheaper. At that point Aquascapes may have to make some changes but until then....they're still making dough.

[johnkeegan]

Great info. Thanks.

[Malrex]

My only comment about the foam is that I've had alot more success with Aquascape's foam than other brands (I don't have the gun and with some other brands, the foam wouldn't shoot out the nozzle, but the bottom--very messy).

I'm going to check out some of this info though and try it out--great stuff.

[tjl]

John, I agree with you, I also think that Aquascape is getting a little bit to pricey. It's time to start looking somewhere else for pond products.

[LandArts]

AZ Ponds pricing is hard to beat. I'd take the Savio line over Aquascapes.

[Hamons]

Here are my defaut components for a pind install.

Generic 45 mill roof liner
Sequence External Pond Pumps
Savio Skimmer

Everything else is custom made or uses standard plumbing parts.

[johnkeegan]

For curiousity, I did check with Aquascape and asked what the difference was between Great Stuff and their foam other than the color. All he said is that they can guarantee that their foam is "fish safe." He can't vouch for the others. May or may not be an issue, although from reading the back of the labels they don't appear to be constituted the same.
...And Hamons- I thought roofing liner was not "fish safe."
...and, John P., as far as the term "sealant." You may want to check the front of the can for "Great Stuff" ....it says "Insulating Foam Sealant."