[steve lester]

hi everyone, i'm looking for production rate averages for hardscaping. interlocken pavers, excavation and install, flagstone, bluestone, boulders, retaining walls, etc. i'm checking on our guys production as well as starting to put together a excel spreadsheet for estimating for outside sale peaple, if anyone has anything that can help speed up the process it would be great.

[Stonehenge]

Maybe you can lay out what your production rates are and they can be compared to others.

Just a thought.

[AZTLANLC]

Yes I'd love to see your productions rates specially on the stoops.

[steve lester]

that's a little bit of a problem all are records are job combined, patio, seatwalls, firepits everything nothing is seperated. we have been doing everything by the sq ft and lin ft. everything included, if we use it or not. average price for sq. ft. is 13.00 and wall is 25 to 30. i think sometime we win big but sometimes we lose big to, i'm trying to stop that. we have 7 crews four three man and three four man. each crew is resposible for everthing, from excavation to final finish. and its getting a liitle expensive having everthing for everyone. i have been working on specilizing the crews a bit and seperating them up, different excavation crews, install crews, and custom for bluestone, boulders etc. we have two sales persons, one is myself and a employee for the other thats been in the paver bis for years, i'm trying to make a spread sheet for other salesman with less experiance to price jobs, on a per job basis, so starting from scrach is a little hard. i have been busy lately doing other things in the company. so the other saleperson is a must. so some production rates to compare to would be great. we have all the toys, semi's, 10 wheelers, skidsteer, forklifts, wheelbarrow buggies, mini excavators, hook lifts, front end loaders, brick saws, table saws, a large aray of tampers, so equipment is not a factor. oh ya i'm also trying to find out if my guys are milking the dog a bit too. so any help would be so much appreciated, and any software that might be avilable for hardscaping. we have dynascape for making drawings.

[AZTLANLC]

Listen I honestly have a hard time believing that running so many crews and doing so many stoops a year you still charge by the square foot and don't have productions rate if I had so many jobs a year I would know how much time it takes to complete each task down to the minute.

If you really have that size company then good for you but if you are like so many other people I have seen in some other forums that pretend to be someone they're not with an arrogant attitude please stop.

I'm not trying to make enemies here bear in mind, so if you want to see some productions rates PM me and will be glad to send you the little that I have.

[PSUscaper]

"Listen I honestly have a hard time believing that running so many crews and doing so many stoops a year you still charge by the square foot and don't have productions rate if I had so many jobs a year I would know how much time it takes to complete each task down to the minute."

Actually.......I know a few guys that are the exact same way.

One problem I see is that they have huge problems keeping guys around for any length of time. Its hard to develop estimating systems for people when they leave every year. Hence why they all end up pricing out by the square foot. They just don't have the time to do any other way because their sales people are in and out so much.

Ya, estimating programs can help put the pieces together....but.....the same problems occur. I have yet to meet many owners who have time to really, really know their estimating programs. They put it in the hands of their employees. And when your employees are being replaced every year, the system fails.

I don't care what estimating program you use. No program accounts for job conditions, PITA conditions, etc. This is where I see people lose tons of money. The programs work for ideal conditions, but cannot calculate things such as site access, pattern complexities, PITA clients, etc. No matter what, you need the people who KNOW what the hek their looking at when their pricing the job out.

Its along the same lines as design programs. All these guys think buying a design program will make them a designer........LOL....

[steve lester]

you hit the nail on the head, i had four saleman at one time doing it all, and i think they were good, but when i went to change things (for the better i beleive) they walked, and not only walked but started there own thing as well,

as for pricing and complex job such as access to back yards, not that big of a problem for me, i have mini excavators that fit through a 3' gate and buggie's that fit too, and dump in a dumpster. hills aren't a problem either they are on tracks, they hold about 3 1/2 to 4 wheel barrow at a time.

there has to be somthing out there that can make things better and easier. maybe i need find a excell programer

[Stonehenge]

Steve, you might be missing the point PSU was making - if you paid for buggies to fit in tight spaces, you probably should be charging to recoup that cost. Just like you should be charging if you get the sense that a client is going to be a difficult one, measuring mortar temperatures or nitpicking each plant or reviewing all the tumbled pavers to be sure none of them are too tumbled.

As for production rates - here's the thing. You're asking for people to here to take time from their schedules to run through all their production rates and production scenarios, but you don't offer any of your own. A good analogy to this situation might be you meeting with a client and them asking you to come up with three different design options, expecting you to create them without being paid in advance. Those designs usually get placed on a far back burner for me.

And I guess since you don't have any data to start with, I'm not sure how providing any data would be helpful, as you'd have nothing to compare the data to. How do you schedule your work if you don't have at least a little production data?

I think if you dig deep and produce some data of your own (prepayment of design fee), you'll probably find others more willing to spend time on your question (create a great design).

[prapoza]

VanderKooi has some good general production rates for various tasks. We also use RS Means, a lot of info there. We send 99% of our work orders out with estimated time (budgeted man hours). We started doing that 7-8 years ago, I can't imagine not doing it. Even when we do T&M which is not very often we still put est. time.

[Greensmith]

Is there a true landscaping/hardscaping production rate book out there? I just checked our RS means and it seems very building
contractor oriented.

[lasting impress]

I personally think its impossible to give an accurate man hours time. And these are some of the reasons that I can see.

1. Different procedures used by one company compared to another. (dig depth, compacting time, types of equipment, etc...)
2. Age and knowledge of employees. Most younger employees can outwork older ones. (I said most, but not all)
3. Distance from quarry, place to dump fill
4. Accessability, driveway or backyard patio. (even with small equipment, it takes more time to travel in and out of the backyard)
5. Damage that will be made to the yard that you must repair.
6. Complexity of the design. (multi level patio, stairs, paver designs)
7. Weather. (hot and humid, rainy) It once took me 17 days (rained hard 14 days) to complete a 10 day job.
8. How good is your foreman at recognising slacking off, and can he get them motivated.

I could probably list 20 more reasons, but you should get my point by now. I charge between $14 - $16 sqft for pavers (that covers most of the pavers we use 90% of the time) and $35 - $40 sqft for retaining walls. Then I look to see if there are any factures that will take the job more time and charge accordingly.

Im just a small company with 3 full time and 3 part time employees.

[PSUscaper]

For the size of company you are, a program would most likely be the best route to take. What you need to do is find a way to both start tracking and then start analyzing job data.

As mentioned, vander koi and many others have programs that work. I've used one called 'quick estimator' (you can google it) that worked ok.

The point still needs to be made. If you implement one of these programs it is going to take a LOT of time. You don't just sit there one night and put these things together. I would higher or train a person just for the sole purpose of running it and maintaining it for the size of your operation. Then I would be sure to keep that person very happy so they don't leave!

[steve lester]

hey psu, are you still using quick estimator i do remember looking at that program a couple years back.

vander koi gave me a excel spreadsheet of our over head expences, but i don't remember them taking about anything more than that, i'll have to get in touch with them and find out.

[prapoza]

I have an RS Means book from 2000. It has a lot of building stuff but also has masonry, planting, grading, retaining walls, excavation etc... It is a great reference especially for the stuff we don't do a lot. They have times for different size pieces of equipment, different crews etc...
As lasting said, production rates will vary based on a lot of factors but all things being equal times should not vary that much once you get the materials to the site and start laying it down.
We use unit pricing then add time for unusual factors like access, cuts, etc...
Let's say we are doing a 200s.f. paver patio at $16/ft = $3200. that includes a 6" base, 1" of sand, yada yada. Then add time because the dig out can only be done by hand (access). 200s.f. dig out 10" = 6.5 c.y. +15% over dig= 7.5 c.y. / 5c.f. per wheel barrow = 41 wheel barrows out x 10 minutes/barrel=6.8 hrs @ our hourly rate. Add 6" or 32 wheel barrows in at ?? = ?? hrs. @ our hourly rate. Plus getting the pavers in the backyard at our hourly rate. Plus a radius cut 1.5 hours at our hourly rate. Add it all up and that's our price on that particular patio.

[steve lester]

how do you come up with 10 min barrel time.