What Would You Do?

Pelican · #1 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:48 PM

I've got a job building a stone wall, it's the largest I've done. Actually, all our other stone work has been repairs of existing walls.

When I was bidding this job, I asked my stone supplier how much wall I should expect to get from a yard of stone, he said 20 square feet. I'm getting about 12 in actuality. I added a buffer to my materials list but not anywhere near that amount.

Problem #2

I was quoted $100/yard for the stone at the supplier. I took all 3 yards he had in stock and told him I'd need more. From the treatment I got when I inquired when the next delivery would be, I realized I wouldn't be getting any more from them. I found an alternate supplier with the same stone but at $180/yard.

Bottom line is I'm requiring much more stone than I anticipated at a much higher cost. This occurred after I bid the job and started it. I'm currently at over 200% on my materials cost and end up at almost 300%. I haven't yet calculated whether this job will come in at a loss, but I'm certainly taking a hit.

So, what would you do in this situation?

Stonehenge · #2 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 12:30 AM

I want to tell you to charge the client, but as I imagine the client asking why the change in price, the reasons sound kinda hollow.

That's part of the reason I like using a higher-priced supplier when making bids - if I can get it cheaper, great. But if not, I won't lose my shirt.

And yeah, never trust a supplier when they tell you how far a given quantity of stone will go.

Forge · #3 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 01:01 AM

For future reference, in almost all stone I have ever used, you can count on about 15 sq ft of wall for one man rock, 12 sq ft for two man and 9 sq ft for three man. It is not 100% accurate, but I have found it to be good enough for bidding on projects.

As far as being over on materials, only you know your client well enough to judge whether you could ask for more money or not. The one time I ended up way over on material costs for a wall, it happened to be in a large enough project that I could absorb the loss elsewhere...

Pelican · #4 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 11:47 AM

Thanks for the replies, and thanks for the info Forge. This is a learning experience, the next wall I bid I'll have the results of this one to refer to and do a better job.

The client has added a bit more work to the property where I can recoup some of this loss, but certainly not all of it, they are small additions. He's a great client with a lot of traffic at his business and has given me numerous referrals so I'm very hesitant in explaining what happened. I'm sure he'd understand, but it would bother me at night, I'll most likely eat it.

The end of last season and all of this one have been extremely tough so a hit like this really hurts.

Paul · #5 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 04:31 PM

I think there might have been a miscommunication between your supplier and the actual wall. Next time you check with the stone supplier ask how many pounds per Cu ft the stone weights. That way you know how much stone is involved by the cu ft or ton. plus you can check on the pallets if they are loaded light.

Pelican · #6 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 06:06 PM

This was bulk stone that they sell by the cubic yard, not palletized stone. Both dealers sell it this way, the quarry is about 45 minutes away. I'm going to try and find out where the quarry is for the next job and have my buddy haul me a 20 ton load rather than use a local supplier.

This isn't the first time I've had problems with the first supplier, this is the one that broke the camel's back. When I asked him when I could expect the stone to be restocked, he replied "Sometime this week". I pointed out that two promised delivery dates had come and gone, he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. It won't happen again.

PSUscaper · #7 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 08:00 PM

My supplier always says something like 20 ft out of a pallet of stone, and I've never gotten more than 15. Except for one supplier who sells a 'select' stone which is hand picked more carefully and placed on the pallet.

The other problem is you may get 20 ft out of a pallet, but 10 ft of it may be complete garbage, and shouldn't be used anywhere else except for building up the back of the wall, though some guys use every last piece, and it shows.

Forge · #8 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 06:09 PM

I didn't say it in my post, so I should add that those numbers are on a per ton basis, not per yard. I'm not positive, but I believe the conversion is somewhere around 1.3 tons/yd for most rock.

Everything out here is sold by ton as far as rock goes, it is almost impossible to find palletized wall rock, and when you do, it is like PSU said, you may get up to 50% slag.

mant · #9 (**permalink**) 10-05-2007, 08:07 AM

I figure my stone materials this way:
L x W x Avg. thickness of wall = your cuft of material
x that by 1.3 = your ton's
This way you have both # depending on how the stone is packaged.

Palletized material is dependent on the stone and your ability or the workability of the stone.

Regular palletized fieldstone I can use every stone, other stone types on a pallet is a crap shoot on whats inside. But a 15 - 20 sq ft is a good estimate.

jwholden · #10 (**permalink**) 10-05-2007, 09:13 PM

Pelican,

Are you on this job now? How far over your estimated amount are you? I hope it isn't too much.

Pelican · #11 (**permalink**) 10-06-2007, 08:44 AM

Yes, I'm working this job presently. It should be complete in 2 more days. Yesterday I went to purchase the final load of stone from the new supplier and he only had half of what I needed, so now I have another delivery trip in it as well. My labor estimate seems to be running right about where I figured. I'm pretty sure I'm going to break even in the end, I'll have my materials and labor covered but nothing left for the company. It sucks, but I have to chalk it up to a learning curve on stone work.

My first Unilock job I broke even on too due to a geometry error on my part. That was 10 years ago. I can't dwell on this stuff or it would drive me nuts. Work in my area is pretty slow right now so I've been accepting jobs that I'd normally refer away. I have a guy now that's very good in stone work, I don't have the patience for it myself, so when a good client needed this wall built I worked it up based on the information my supplier gave me.

I'll get through this, it's discouraging though after the season I had last year, the lack of snow for plowing this past winter and the horrendous weather we had this spring, all of which have reduced revenues to a dangerous level.