[Stonehenge]

I'm wondering whether our expectations of retaining wall block have exceeded their capabilities. Or maybe worse, that we are aware of their capabilities (and shortcomings) but choose to selectively forget those things that a retaining wall can't do, because it would make a design more involved and costly to the consumer, making it less likely that we would land the job.

I'm browsing the literature of a few retaining wall block companies, looking for a product that will fit with a design I'm working on, and as I'm looking I'm noticing all kinds of things these walls are doing that seem to either turn a blind eye or selectively forget that they can't do them.

One is the parthenon style seat wall mentioned in the thread I just posted. But another is wrought iron anchored to these freeze-thaw susceptible walls. There's even a double door iron gate in one brochure. Unless they were poured on a frost-free footing, you know those gates are going to move. Maybe not in 2 years, but certainly in 5. Or 7. Or some other number that's less than what the client would have expected (like what you'd get with deep concrete footings and masonry).

Am I just overly worried, or are we setting up our industry for big black eyes when our seat walls and ornamental metal starts coming apart, bending and twisting with each winter and spring?

[mrusk]

I think your right. The jobs might look good for 3-5-7 years. But after that.. who knows.

[PSUscaper]

I think I've touched on this one quite a few times in one way or another, but absolutely.

Are you telling me pillars built 4 ft + on a granular base aren't going to lean in years to come???? I've seen ones with a footing lean....none the less ones built 6,7, 8' plus.

And double sided walls.......those are just starting to hit the few year mark, so it should be interesting to see how many start leaning over the years.

[mrusk]

I saw a certain landscaper build versa lok pillars 8 feet tall that bump out in the center. I can not see how those will last.

I think some of the double sided systems are okay, but to many of them depend on glue to hold them together. Certain things should only be done out of masonry.

[Dale Wiley]

It is no different than the equipment business.

The sales men the factory reps will tell you anything, anything to make you think the product will work and do what you want it to, so you buy it even though there is not a chance in hades it will work in the long terms.

These salespeople and company''s are so full of bull , I really don't believe any of them anymore. When you see something like that from the manufacturer, it has one purpose... to sell the product to the DISTRIBUTOR OR DEALER.

That is the purpose of factory sales people, promotions etc... they are evaluated on how well they sell the product to THEIR customer... which is the DISTRIBUTOR OR DEALER... not you the contractor , and sure as not the end user ... your customer.

I was at a field day for equipment last week, and the lunacy of the sales staff was unbelievable. They just love to hear themselves talk, and you better shut up, so they can keep prattling on, about....about....NOTHING ...

I am so glad I have read Michaels Stones sales book, and have been refining my sales techniques. You really have to be careful about what you can and cannot do, and how you communicate that to your clients, because it is you and you alone on the hook.. the distributors, their sales lackeys, and the manufacturer will leave you holding the bag.

If you installed a door like that and it failed, or settled.. I am sure the sales staff will be right there to stand behind you and back you up. .. right down to replacing your lost dollars on any warranty work you had to do....another good reason to have stamped engineered plans.

[Raj Venugopal]

I recently visited some driveways I laid in '94.

They look good, but the stone is a little worn and the style is dated. That's the biggest problem in my opinion...dating. Materials that look timeless is normally the stuff not built by man, but rather, nature. Belgium blocks beat any paver product.

A lot of structural considerations are also on account of climate.
We have tough winters and repeat freeze/thaw cycles per day, which also test our basework. What works in New England is underbuilt in Atlantic Canada, which is probably overbuilt for southern stateside. Picking materials that are not only aesthetically pleasing but suited for the climate will stand the test of time.

Poured concrete, for example, is a bad choice for our region, esp my neighbourhood which is largely clay. It's better suited, in my opinion, for hotter areas where asphalt weakens with high dry heat.

Many retaining walls fail in our area for obvious workmanship reasons, but I think there's an inevitability to wall failure in hilly areas that are subjected to constant pressures, shifting hydrostatic loads, high slippage factors, not to mention vehicular surcharge, expanding plant root systems and the like.

[Stonehenge]

Raj - I had it in my head that you were in another profession until a few years ago.

Anyway, I'm not talking so much about the straightforward retaining wall - I'm talking more about the ornamentation of those retaining walls, where there are grill cubbies and seating areas and all these other really nifty things that are sitting on 6-7" of crushed stone, things that unlike a simple retaining wall, will look kinda ugly and be far less functional if they shift and move.

Like someone else mentioned, a local competitor built these attractive, 7-8' columns where the lot line meets the street. They looked great the day they were installed. But now, a few years later, one is looking like the leaning tower of Pisa.

And something in your head tells you that these things might not work, but you see all these beautiful pictures in the product brochures, so they must work, right?

I want to start finding some of those seatwalls I mentioned in another thread to see how they are holding up a few years later.

[Pelican]

The one that bothers me most is the photos of patios built around pools using bullnose for the pool's edge. I just can't see that working long term in my zone 5 area. Not only is there the risk of settling at the pools edge, but also the risk of frost popping the bullnose from the edge rail. I don't want a call back telling me a bullnose is at the bottom of the pool and has damaged the liner.

I recommend to my customers that they have a 2' minimum perimeter installed of poured concrete, to which I'll butt pavers up to. This past spring I gave an estimate to repair a patio installed 5 years ago that had settled badly around the pool's edge. The estimate was in excess of $20K and beyond their budget, so here we have a customer unhappy with their paver install. It's not good for any of us.

[mrusk]

Originally posted by Pelican
The one that bothers me most is the photos of patios built around pools using bullnose for the pool's edge. I just can't see that working long term in my zone 5 area. Not only is there the risk of settling at the pools edge, but also the risk of frost popping the bullnose from the edge rail. I don't want a call back telling me a bullnose is at the bottom of the pool and has damaged the liner.

I recommend to my customers that they have a 2' minimum perimeter installed of poured concrete, to which I'll butt pavers up to. This past spring I gave an estimate to repair a patio installed 5 years ago that had settled badly around the pool's edge. The estimate was in excess of $20K and beyond their budget, so here we have a customer unhappy with their paver install. It's not good for any of us.

I think your issue has to do with improper backfilling of liner pools. There is a simply rule to follow when it comes to liner pools and paver. "If you do not backfill the pool, don't install pavers around it?

2 feet of concrete around a pool? That looks tacky and cheap.

[dan deutekom]

I am with Pelican on bull nose pavers and pools. I don't know about Mrusk's area but around here the landscaper doesn't have any say in the backfilling of a pool. That is done to the specifications of the pool manufacturer by the pool installer. I wouldn't want to take on the liability of caving in a new pool because I wanted the backfill to be to my satisfaction. Every pool I do has a poured concrete apron and it looks just fine. I have done many pools with a natural stone waterfall and for the weight of the rock we have the pool installer pour some concrete pillers to help bear the weight of the rock. If this isn't done we won't do the install.

Raj is right about looking at older jobs. The stone has lost its "luster" and the style is dated. I think the jobs we do now will look dated in 10 years as well. I think one of the problems is that we feel the job should last forever; but is that a realistic idea. In todays society things seem to be renovated every 10 to 15 years in the housing market. A good roof is 12 to 15 years, furnace 10, paved drive 10, kitchen,10 - 15, flooring 10, windows 20. Just about everything built seems to only have a trouble free lifetime of about 15 to 20 years.Renovations are done quite often just for the sake of style. Why do we expect our hardscaping to be any different?

I am sure that we are exceeding the capabilities of SRW block but that is also one of its strong points. It dosn't have to stand the test of time like construction did 100 years ago. Chances are that in 10 or 15 years down the road it is going to be torn down anyway.

[Dale Wiley]

I love dan's sig line. I have a couple of things I would add....

If they should find some change in my pocket... there has obviously been some kind of a big mistake..I had intended to spend it all, and the check my heirs write to the funeral home should bounce......

[EpicInterlock]

Hahaha, that's great Dan and Dale.....I've heard a couple times that you should always die broke, not rich

[dan deutekom]

Dale

[HardScaper26]

I'm happy that you brought this issue up. I completely agree with you and can't wait to see what some of these walls end up looking like it ten years when I own a business. BTW This is a great site and as an Ornamental Hort/Landscape Contracting student, I am learning a tremeneous amount from people who truly care about doing work the right way, so thanks everybody.

Originally posted by Stonehenge
I'm wondering whether our expectations of retaining wall block have exceeded their capabilities. Or maybe worse, that we are aware of their capabilities (and shortcomings) but choose to selectively forget those things that a retaining wall can't do, because it would make a design more involved and costly to the consumer, making it less likely that we would land the job.

I'm browsing the literature of a few retaining wall block companies, looking for a product that will fit with a design I'm working on, and as I'm looking I'm noticing all kinds of things these walls are doing that seem to either turn a blind eye or selectively forget that they can't do them.

One is the parthenon style seat wall mentioned in the thread I just posted. But another is wrought iron anchored to these freeze-thaw susceptible walls. There's even a double door iron gate in one brochure. Unless they were poured on a frost-free footing, you know those gates are going to move. Maybe not in 2 years, but certainly in 5. Or 7. Or some other number that's less than what the client would have expected (like what you'd get with deep concrete footings and masonry).

Am I just overly worried, or are we setting up our industry for big black eyes when our seat walls and ornamental metal starts coming apart, bending and twisting with each winter and spring?