[Malrex]

Howdy everyone...here's the situation.

I'm bidding on a pond project. The homeowner has a large stone in his yard that he wants to be the waterfall. The stone is 6' long, 4' high, and 2' wide. The stone would need to be moved about 20 feet. I talked to a few excavator operators I know, they say they can move it (and may cause damage to the stone), but not lift it. I wanted it lifted as I want to get pond liner underneath it. I'm estimating that the stone is about 4 tons in weight.

The area is surrounded by a chain link fence that I have told the homeowner would need to be brought down so that the equipment could move around--i.e. should be plenty of room to manuever.

I don't have alot of experience with heavy equipment (smaller skid loaders, yes) and frankly the whole thing makes me a little nervous except I really need some work and the homeowner seems pretty cool. He REALLY wants that stone to be the waterfall (which will be a little tricky in itself as the ground is flat, but I feel confident I can build up the ground and make it look good without the volcanoe effect).

My questions is, what type of equipment would you suggest to move such a rock? There is room to manuever, but not tons of room as its surrounded by a paver walkway and driveway (and I don't want that to get jacked up). Would I need to look into subcontracting out to a crane company or something..or do I need to rent a larger piece of equipment (not sure what..loader?)and operator. My first year here, so any advice would be good--I feel a little over my head with just this one rock. Once that stone is in place with a liner underneath I feel the rest of the project would be a home run. Please advise.

[4seasons]

We just moved some 3ton stones with a gehl telescoping machine. Make Sure You Protect the liner. We used straps so we wouldn't scratch the rock.

[ianc]

could you not hire of those 25ton truck cranes - we have 2 of them in our small town - they are always busy - I hired them to install a natural stone entranceway - $110 per hr 3hr minimum
the driver had the slings - we just directed it in - quicky clean install

[Stonehenge]

I think that once the client understands what would be involved in moving this one rock, he'll probably opt out.

By my rough calculations, that stone weighs around 8,000 pounds. To lift that, you're going to need something like a Cat 315 or 318. Those machines run about 42,000 pounds and 10' wide. Everything in it's path will get "jacked up", at least a little.

Rental of the machine for a day will run you about $800, plus the straps and other hardware you'll need to lift the stone, add another couple hundred. Then, add the cost of repairing everything between the pond and the street. Maybe $4,000?

So you're looking at a minimum of $5,000 to place that stone. If he's got that budget, rock on.

Unless someone else has another idea, that's the only way I can see to make that happen, and it's a lot of money for one stone.

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by ianc
could you not hire of those 25ton truck cranes - we have 2 of them in our small town - they are always busy - I hired them to install a natural stone entranceway - $110 per hr 3hr minimum
the driver had the slings - we just directed it in - quicky clean install

That might work, but since it'd probably get boomed over their house, I'd want to see the chart that shows they can lift 4 tons at the extension he'll need.

[ianc]

you can phone and ask the company the projection for 4 tons - we had a 25 ton crane manuver 4 ton stones approx 30 ft out - looks like the poster needs 10+10 if he can get the truck close
enough

[Malrex]

Stonehenge hit the nail on the head about why I was worried.

Luckily though, if there is a 25ton crane truck like Ianc suggested, that would totally work. The driveway runs right along where I need it and the stone is about 15' from the driveway. Taking down the fence, they could drive right in there if they needed too. The house is far away so they wouldn't need to extend that far.

I'll have to hunt down one of those trucks...I hope there is one nearby. Thanks guys!

(Going to put alot of padding on the liner).

[HardScaper26]

I agree with the use of the crane as the most suitable way to do this......Im not sure why you wish to put the pond liner under the rock...I am not a pro at doing ponds, but I can see damage being done to the liner regardless of a lot of padding or not. Feel free to disagree with this.

Post changed per posters request

[agla]

It happens a lot of the time that a homeowner has something and they fixate on it. Sometimes they'll do it because they perceive value that they want to exploit. Other times they just think something could be cool and don't realize he consequence.

I did a plan a couple of years ago for a developer on his own house. The site was a raze and replace house lot that had a few specimen trees. They loved the Japanese Maple and basically had the house designed around it The house was under construction when I got called in. The house was a two story steal frame house with a walkout on the water side, so we are not talking a cheap house by any means. The property also had a little guest house.

In order to make the two car attached garage and front entry door work around the maple, the existing guest house lined up 5' in from the outside edge of the garage door just 25' away. You would have to back out and quickly maneuver the car to not hit the guest house. They thought it was a small price to pay to save the Maple. Personally, I think $1,500 would have been a smaller price to pay to move the %^&*ing maple and design a house that worked, but what do I know?

I think Stonehenge makes good sense when he says present them with the realistic cost to use the rock. At the same time, figure a way to incorporate the rock into the landscape without moving it.

I'm dealing with a big rock in a driveway island right now. I'm having 15 yards of soil brought in and about 20 other smaller boulders. We will make a rock garden out of the whole island. The rock will not be the dominant feature of the island in the end.

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by HardScaper26
I agree with the use of the crane as the most suitable way to do this......Im not sure why you wish to put the pond liner under the rock...I am not a pro at doing ponds, but I can't see damage being done to the liner regardless of a lot of padding or not. Feel free to disagree with this.

We've cut holes in liners with stones that weighed as little as 500 pounds. 4 tons is enough to make a very large hole. Padding is most certainly required. As for whether to put liner under it - if that isn't done and this is the weir stone, I'm not sure how you'd keep the water inside the water feature.

Hardscaper26 - your profile shows your industry affiliation as "other" - what exactly do you do?

[HardScaper26]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
We've cut holes in liners with stones that weighed as little as 500 pounds. 4 tons is enough to make a very large hole. Padding is most certainly required. As for whether to put liner under it - if that isn't done and this is the weir stone, I'm not sure how you'd keep the water inside the water feature.

Hardscaper26 - your profile shows your industry affiliation as "other" - what exactly do you do?

sorry bout that Stonhenge.....I have worked for a few years in different landscape fields....mostly higher end landscape construction....currently I am a student attending Delaware Valley College for Ornamental Horticulture and Landscape Contracting.
I was wondering about going around the stone and then sealing it as an alternative to padding the stone. Oh and sorry...In my last post i meant to put damage done regardless if there is a lot of padding or not..I definately realize that a four ton boulder could do that kind of damage..That's why you think I'm crazy lol

[natural12]

Based on my experience I would definitely use a fair amount of padding on the liner. I would certainly put the boulder on the liner as opposed to trying to seal around it. I have built a lot of ponds and the smallest of leaks will be noticeable and will drive you nuts trying to find it. Not to mention repairing it with a huge boulder on top of it. I use a lot of boulders on our ponds typically maxing out at 2000 lbs or so. I will use extra liner as padding and perhaps some cardboard. You need to be very careful to lay the boulder down without it sliding around. Sometimes it is tricky to get the straps out from under the boulder so keep that in mind. If the strap is stuck under the boulder you will have to use the crane or whatever to pull it out. This can certainly rip the liner. Just use a lot of padding.

I would have to agree with the last posts that perhaps you need to convince the homeowners that it is not a great idea. Sounds like one of those projects (moving the stone that is) that once you get into it you curse yourself for agreeing to do it.

[HardScaper26]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it probably isn't worth it. At some point what are the odds of the ground moving and the boulder tearing the liner. What a pain that could be to detect and repair.

[ianc]

Come on folks - the client wants the rock to be part of the waterfeature - I do not see the issue

lay a piece of ridged SM insulation ontop of the liner and loose bedding sand under - the worst part is getting the slings out from under the rock once she is boomed into place - takes a bit of blocks-spud bar and some patience

[ianc]

Just on a side note:
on larger waterfalls where large stones are involved - I place a liner under the whole waterfall with bedding sand top/bottom - then construct the waterfall - there is also a secondary liner that follows the water flow up the waterfall - the bottom liner is the insurance policy - the top liner is where all the action is

old pic
http://www.landscapeople.com/temp/1110_017.jpg