[PSUscaper]

Ok, brought up by another thread, well, that and a rainy day with a little extra time left over.....

Now that many of us have a few years of work using poly sand under our belts, and now that we've seen it in action for a few years, are we better off than before when we just used plain old sand?????

Is EVERY application necessarily a good application for poly sand?????

Do we really see long term weed control with the use of poly sand??????

Does the added expense and time associated with installing poly really save money in the long run??????

I'll start with my answers.

1, I don't necessarily believe every application is meant for poly sand. Steep slopes, ok, good application. A 200 sq ft walkway.....can't really say I had that many problems with sand in those before poly. Did I get many call backs for walkways because sand washed out in the 'old' days....no. Financially, I can't say in any sense that I'm saving money on call backs for washed out sand. If the sand washed out, the client would go out, buy a $5 dollar bag of sand and sweep it in in 10 mins....if they were even that concerned. At this point, I can think of maybe 1 of 50 jobs where the client had a concern with sand in the joints. And honestly, many of the jobs that did have joint sand problems couldn't necessarily be blamed on the joint sand, many of them were because of improper installation/unexpected settling of other contractors where pavers spread apart and the sand migrated down into the now larger joint.

2, do we really see long term weed control........my answer is a NO. I've seen my own jobs, 2-3 years old now with signifigant weed growth. Does poly sand postpone weed growth for a few years....ok, I'll agree. Does it postpone it for longer than that???
I don't think so.

3, Is the added expense worth it. Maybe it made it easier to sell at one point because it was new, not many were using it, and I could market the 'greatness' of it, but now that it has become a common commodity, that isn't really working anymore.

Is the added expense of +/-$10 a bag and the added expense and headaches of installing it saving the client money, and more importantly, making me more money??? I really don't think so anymore. As just mentioned, it really isn't a selling point anymore because many people are just assuming it to be installed. I really must say, that I never really had that many call backs using regular sand in the past, so I can't say its saving me money in return visits. And, with the added expense of say $100 dollars in cost and the added time spent installing it (we all know what it's like when rain is in the forecast) is it really out weighing the costs associated with the few call backs that needed to be dealt with???

And, does the added cost of the sand save more than the added cost of a twice a year spray of round-up for the client?? And if it is only go to postpone weed growth for a few years, then that added cost of round-up is only save in the first few years for the client.

Maybe, just maybe, poly sand is better these days than it was a few years ago and we will see better results. But as of today, I will ask this one final question.

Is poly sand nothing more than a marketing scheme to convince contractors and clients to buy something that does nothing more than add another expense to their installation........... And is bottled water really better than tap water?

Just seeing what everyone really has to say on this subject.

Its sad, but my main reaon for using it these days is starting to be based on the fact that I like the color more than I did of regular sand. Never had that brown color before and never had gray. That part is great!

[mrusk]

I do not have much to say here but i would like to mention how much ALLIANCE stands behind their product. The product is failing on a 2600sq ft job i did last year. They send a guy out and with no questions ask they are washing it down and resanding the entire thing under warranty. I could not ask for more then that.

[Stonehenge]

Polymeric has become the default joint sand for us. It adds little in extra time, but has the potential to add more if there's a threat of rain - but not enough for us to consider ever going back.

It does all the things it says it does, plus a couple more.

One trick on the weed thing - after you're done compacting the joint sand, sweep it in one last time to fill the joints completely. Having those narrow columns of space between pavers post-compaction gives weed seeds a chance to get started once a little rain gets trapped in there. This problem is just about eradicated when the joints are full prior to wetting.

[AZTLANLC]

It does work for me also.
I can see taking a little extra time after you install it to wet it down but unless I'm missing something what's the difference in time between regular sand or poly?
You can still achieve weed control with regular sand if you mix it with pre-m but why.
applying round-up this days ain't cheap at all a minimal application should be around $100.00.

I don't think polymeric is just a scheme to get more money out of a contractor or customers for that matter, but depending an supplier is a product that works and in the long run saves money to the customer

[Bunky]

I would like to add something if I may. Being a supplier of this type of sand, we see/hear things that an installer may not. We get calls from customers that had their job professionally installed years prior by a landscaper about problems and concerns. Some calls are about the lack sand left in the joints. We suggest the "Poly" sand (we sell the organic type) to fill those joints. We may also get questions asked about other situations with the installation. Most calls are not severe enough to get the original landscaper involved, they mainly consist of maintenance issues such as cleaning, sealing, joint sands, etc.. We really do not get calls about ?'s or concerns with the "poly" sand.
It only takes one customer to badmouth the installer to his/her neighbor about not utilizing the correct product for that job. I feel that the "poly" sands work great and are worth the $. I just got a call from a city engineeer about the problem they were having with 50,000 clay pavers utilized on the city street. The pavers were shifting, which is caused from the lack of sand. The city decided to wash out the joints and replace with the "poly" sand. During this whole process, the city never contacted the installer. they felt that it was not a warranty situation, so they are handling it themselves. I do not know if they are upset with the installer or not, but the point I am making is that the installers do not always get the call backs. Just because you may not get a call back, does not assume that there are no concerns or problems. In my opinion, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks

[cutntrim]

I think everyone around here uses polymeric now. Having only done installs for a few years, I've used nothing else. I caution customers that yes weeds can still get a foothold eventually, and yes they'll need to top it up in a few years.

[HRLand]

We have been using poly on all jobs for the last 3(?) years and have had good results. The first time I used it was a nightmare because the wetting directions weren't followed. This was at the home of the builder we work for.

[Stonehenge]

My timing appears to be impeccable, given all the hubbub about poly sand lately - I just put up an article about polymeric sand for those who want to know some of the basics of who, what, when, where and why.

[Raj Venugopal]

Excellent article.

There is a new polymeric product out, this year I think...polymeric crusher dust. Its application is mainly for flagstone type applications where wider and irregular joints are the norm.

There are also different grades of polymeric sand, although I've never used them. For example, while the Techniseal bag on the article is the regular polymeric, there is a Techniseal HP sand (which a local deal carries a few bags of) which is apparently used in high water areas such as washout areas and poolside.

[Ford]

Almost every reply on this thread mentions "weeds".

My question is (I hope this is not off topic) has anyone here ever tried hebicides on paved areas, to help keep weeds controlled?

I was thinking of trying something mild on my own sidewalk next year, perhaps something like a homeowner product, like "preen".

Ford

[AZTLANLC]

I was thinking of trying something mild on my own sidewalk next year, perhaps something like a homeowner product, like "preen".

You can still achieve weed control with regular sand if you mix it with pre-m but why.

[PSUscaper]

One of my concerns on this subject is not that poly sand is good or bad. I still challenge anyone to prove that in the long run, it ECONOMICALLY saves money.

Has anyone had the pleasure of doing repair work on a poly installed patio? What kind of extra time is spent scraping, actually should say chiseling, poly off of the bricks so that they can be relayed.

Bunky is kind of backing my point even more. I've kind of got the impression that BECAUSE poly sand is now available, it has become THE acceptable product to use, and that is being suggested that it is now STANDARD practice to use it. Will ICPI now state that poly sand is part of its recomended procedures, and are we going to see specs by them stating that not using poly sand is no longer allowed? Almost seems like a sand vs stone dust for the bedding layer argument.

One of my concerns is that poly sand becomes a requirement. I just don't like when things are forced down our throats, as they tend to be lately.

Also, here is a very interesting topic. I use Techo bloc poly. No where on the bag does it suggest wearing a dusk mask while installing.

What are the environmental concerns with this product? Has it been tested??????????

Has anyone gotten a good gasp of this stuff on a windy day? What does the polymer do in our lungs? My worker actually will walk away from the project for a few minutues while putting the sand down because it irritates his breathing. Can this be good?

Recently, with the large percent of contractors cutting brick dry with demo saws instead of wet saws, I worry what the future will lead too. I'm not sure where, but I have read some articles on towns cracking down on the dust created from concrete cutting.

We can't hide from the facts that concrete dust is bad for ourselves. If the nation has decided that indirect smoke is bad for us, then how long before they figure out we are putting giant clouds of toxic concrete dust into the air for all the neighborhood to inhale. Ever read a bag of pre-mixed concrete? Everyone I have purchased states their are hazards breathing in concrete dust and that a dust mask should be worn.

And, how long before they figure out that were releasing airborne polymer into the lungs of ourselves, our workers, and all others around us? If poly sand stays in the joints of paver patios for years and years, how long does it stay in our lungs?

Anyone out their familiar with asbestos? Do you know that smokers had a much higher symptom rate with asbestos because the tar from the cigarettes would cause the asbestos to stick in their lungs longer than a non-smoker? What could a polymer stuck in our lungs be attracting?

Is it not standard procedure to use a blower to clean off a brick patio before you wet the poly in? Can you really do it any other way with acceptable results. How long would it take to use a broom only? Can a broom actually sweep the poly sand off adequately?

Can anyone deny that we are touching on some unchartered waters here? I mean, they just recalled a billion toys because of small traces of lead paint on toys. Has anyone else read all the articles on what is going on with all the people who worked on ground zero and the health problems they are having? Is what we do not comparable to any of these similiar subjects?

If a neighbor were to complain that concrete dust irritated their breathing, if polymer sand were to irritate their breathing, would this not become a national subject?

We all need to start thinking about what we are doing here. Instead of being brain washed by a bunch of brick manufacturers, maybe, just maybe, we need to give some thought to what we are really doing.

Is sand washing out of a patio more important that breathing?

[mrusk]

Thats deep. Real deep.

[Stonehenge]

PSU - I looked at the MSDS sheets for several of the poly sands (they can be found online) - because the poly itself is usually proprietary, there is little info about what that can or can't cause in the way of lung problems, because the ingredient isn't spelled out. However, every poly sand contains a large amount of silica, which is known to cause silicosis (not fatal, but not fun, and there's no cure for it), and it's always recommended that people wear breathing protection when working with silica (you can usually find a similar warning on skids of clay pavers).

As for the problems people are having who worked at ground zero at the WTC - much may have to do with the asbestos content that was in the concrete that got pulverized. Asbestos, on top of being fire retardent also boosts the tensile strength on concrete quite a bit, making it a desirable ingredient. Cutting it (like removing concrete slab patios) can release that asbestos in the air - so make sure you're wearing respirators rated for asbestos. 3M's 2091 half-mask filters are rated for asbestos, and that's what we wear.

As for ICPI - who said they decide what is "allowed"? As far as I understand it, they are an organization that puts out recommendations, not law or code. You can always do what you want. We don't prep our base the way ICPI recommends, and I have empirical data that supports that decision, so I'm not worried about bucking the ICPI tide.

I agree that people shouldn't be brainwashed. That being said, if someone has a concern, they should do some research so they can feel comfortable that what they're doing will not harm their health in the short or long term. Not looking into that is as crazy as allowing yourself to be brainwashed.

[HardScaper26]

Originally posted by PSUscaper
One... (quote edited for brevity's sake).

I have to agree with you that the economical side makes no sense for a large area. I didn't read every post that was written so forgive me if I am redundant. I worked on a patio that was about 2600 sq ft last year and we used sand. I can't even imagine usually poly sand on it. The cost difference between using the poly sand and regular sand would have been astonomical. The pavers are spaced tightly so what is the point of using the poly sand instead of just using regular sand. Another point is the weeds coming up. Either way a patio is going to require maintnence. I like to power wash patios once a year and that blasts out the weeds. Let's face it; in a shady area moss is going to grow on the poly sand so that has to be removed. Don't get me wrong, I think poly sand is great in applications such as dry laid natural stones, walks, etc. I just don't believe that it is economical in every situation