[chesie]

huh?

[Stonehenge]

I'm not sure I understood that, either.

[Pelican]

The polymeric sand is heated in a drum similar to a cement mixer to eliminate the moisture, then the other ingredients are added. The bags we buy it in are air tight, if there is no moisture in the sand there can be no condensation. I've never experienced a moisture problem in bagged products unless the bag was torn.

I use both bagged polymeric sand and bulk mason sand for the joint sweeping. With the bulk sand I must cast it over the bricks and allow it to sun dry before sweeping it in. It would have to be dried before adding the portland as in your process. Another drawback to your system that hasn't been mentioned is the shelf life of the portland. It's been my experience that a bag of portland will harden in a short time (1 to 2 weeks depending on humidity) and be useless. Have you found a way around this?

My most costly material in my projects is my time, it is finite in volume and can not be recycled nor replaced. When I need polymeric sand, I'll buy it already prepared in the quantity I need. The time savings more than pays for the slightly higher cost (which has yet to be verified) of the bagged material. I don't have the resources nor the patience or desire to mix on site, plus there are ingredients to true polymeric sand that haven't been mentioned which may not be readily available.

[PSUscaper]

I also have a problem with the color. The poly around me comes in either brown or gray. I can't buy gray sand anywhere else, so there's my first reason. I also like the brown color better than the regular bagged sand I use to buy.

Speaking off, I would always use bagged play sand before poly. I hated, hated, hated using bulk as it was ALWAYS damp and it never swept in like I wanted. I can't stand a finished job with excess sand in the joints because it didn't dry.

I also hated bulk because I use stone dust, not sand for my bedding layer. That means another trip to the stone yard, or messing around with stored sand in the yard (which, would always be wet) and five gallon buckets.

I agree that their might be a savings, but really, How much sand are you using? My average job is about 5-6 bags. It's not breaking the bank.

I can buy gatorade mix in a big bag at the store and make a five gallon jug everyday. Do I....no. I hate the taste of the powder stuff, and I don't drink five gallons. Plus, I hate cleaning the cooler out and no one else will properly. So, I buy bottles and am very happy. I look at the sand the same way.

[AZTLANLC]

If you are looking to save cost I'm pretty sure there is many ways to save dollars vs pennies, mixing sand with portland is not the same as polymeric is like grouting blue stone you know what happens to it.

[Fine D/B]

Thanks, Pelican, PSUscaper and AZTLANLC.
Many of my questions, as a novice in hardscapes, were answered. However, there are definite ways (2000 years old-although Portland's been around for 300+/- years) to conserve cement prior to application including procurement and application techniques; dry conditions, as poly is the same. Also, I never figured joint-fill-sweeping to be a one-step application/process. Of course, saving pennies and losing $s is silly, but I'm unconvinced mixing RELATIVELY dry sand and cement - I do my own experimenting prior to paying wages for same - increases labour costs. I will further add my experience/training on cementitious. My purpose is to learn from your experience more than my theorizing: though I'll try logically/practically to shatter illusions.

[Fine D/B]

I figure drying of WET bulk-sand efficiently spread on pavers in not-too-humid, sunny weather , even in Canada - takes about 30 minutes. Aside from this, what is in poly (safe to inhale?) and I'm sure we can fine-tune ratios vis a vis applications.
p.s. experiment with an open mind - if our forefathers didn't, we would still be "up in the trees".

[PSUscaper]

Did you use to be a engineer Fine d/b? What was your background before landscaping?

I understand what you are trying to do. I had a grandfather who built houses who would make EVERYTHING and use ANYTHING to build his houses. If he saw a pile of scrap wood on the side of the road, he'd pick it up and use it. He made his own windows, recycled copper pipe fittings, made all his own door frames, etc.

He did build a affordable, strong house (most the time he even milled his own lumber.....2 x 10' were more like 3 x 12") but....I can't say he was ever a wealthy man.

I just have to ask what your overall ambition is with this experiment. I have learned that trying to save the client a few bucks usually means costing me a few more. I have no moral problems with charging a client for materials that may be overpriced. I do have problems with making more work for myself on their behalf. And I really don't think any client is going to balk at the extra few 10's or 100's of dollars spent on sand on a 3k or 30k dollar project.

This experiment reminds me of a guy I knew who would screen his own topsoil using 2'x4' metal screed box. Sure, you can do it, and ya, the soil is 'free', but is it really worth it?

If you have this big of a problem with sand being overpriced, I can't imagine what you are doing about plant materials, or even worse, Gas! I can only assume you have your own ethanol plant in your back yard!

[Fine D/B]

Sounds over-the-top PSU. I give-up on getting response to my invitation to experiment: apperently responders are too busy validating their way of doing things on this forum. At least answer my honest questions and invitation to progress.

[Fine D/B]

TO KEEP IT SIMPLE, psu, WE don't build like your grandfather.

[PSUscaper]

Not trying to ruin your day here.

My point is this. Lets say you start this experment. At what point are you going to determine you have the 'exact' recipe and procedures to make your own poly sand?

How are you going to test this recipe. Sure, it may work fine for a month, but what about a year, 2 years, 3 years?

What if, in 2 years, your recipe was wrong and all the jobs you did are now in need of repair?

One of the reasons the poly sand is expensive is because they did the research already. They have long term test results. Testing is not free, costs a lot of money, requires a lot of time.

How are you going to be sure you have a long term product?

Sure, the cost saving may be good now, but what happens when you have to go back and re-sweep sand in all those jobs that failed?

Ok, I won't say that the current bagged products are perfect and not flawed, as they are. A few companies have changed their formulas already because they failed.

But this is the exact point I'm making. They did the research, spent the money on that research, and are now recovering their costs.......that's where a lot of the price comes from.

There is a lot more to the price of the product than just the materials and labor that went into it. Poly sand was developed over many years.

Is it possible to re-create the wheel here and come up with something yourself. Sure. Go right ahead, and when you do, I will be happy to listen to what you've come up with. Hek, maybe you can get it patented and sell it for millions. Like...18 bucks a bag as everyone else does!

And yes, we are very, very busy validating the ways we do things because we have seen very, very many people do things the wrong way and would like nothing more than people to listen to us for once when we tell them not to do something.

If you want a honest answer from me, here it is. Your plan is interesting, but in the end, I don't think your going to see a penny in savings.

[Pelican]

I'm sitting here at my computer and some music from a time long ago just keeps playing over and over in my head....

[natural12]

Just thought I would add that at least with Belgard pavers mortar sand is not recommended for joint filler. It will actually stain the pavers. I have seen this first hand. Concrete sand is advised. Perhaps concrete sand would be a better mix.
Also, the polymeric sand, after it drys, has a flexible quality to it. Not sure your home made mix would have that.
And what about coloring?

Mike

[Forge]

Pelican,....you read my mind.