[Hamons]

Doing a "stepping - stone" walkway using 2" flagstone steppers.

Walkway is about 60' long. Stepping stone go through the lawn and grass will be growing in between them.

I was doing them today -- same way I always do them -- Lay the stones out -- then carefully cut the sod out around each stone -- then lay the stone and level it. It was taking me about 8 or 9 minutes per stone.

At that rate -- Walkway is going to take about 5 hours.

Had an idea though -- could i not just cut all the sod out the size of the walkway nice and neat with sod cutter -- lay the stones - level them and then go back through and plug in the sod into the voids? Seems liek it would be faster --

Only drawback would be the sod would have to be watered for a couple weeks after id o it.

Ideas?

[VoodooChile]

Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, but the traditional way hits me as faster.

Why remove all that sod? Why subject yourself to trying to piece all that sod into the gaps?

We do it like you described, except we xcavate down 6" and hand-tamp 3/4" aggregate, and set the final grade with a thin layer of lime fines.

[Hamons]

Voodoo -- I have always used about 3-4" of sand to level them. Similar to your way - but not quite as s turdy as your way.

Do you have a formula you use to determine time whe doing it your way Voodoo?

[Stonehenge]

If you're putting turf between the stones, 3-4" of anything beneath them would be a waste of time, as it won't do the job you think it'll do. 1/2" tops. 60' long flagstone path through turf should mean no more than 30 pieces of flagstone - in other words, use big stones. Little ones are a waste unless it's a full-on flagstone patio, at which point you should prep it similar to a paver patio (we use 5-6" crushed stone and a 1" layer of bedding sand (yes, sand. but only for flagstone...)).

[VoodooChile]

If you're putting turf between the stones, 3-4" of anything beneath them would be a waste of time, as it won't do the job you think it'll do.

Please explain Stone.

[Stonehenge]

I've found that base prep under extremely small pavements (single pieces of flagstone, a single row of pavers, etc) never seem to hold up very well. I have a few hypotheses as to why:

*Because the base prep usually doesn't extend beyond the pavement (like the flagstone in this case), the prep needs to be perfect right to the very edge, and even then the odds are better that the well-compacted stone will find it's way out into the less-compacted soils. If they do even a little, the work put into the prep is wasted.

*Because the prep area is so small, it's going to be subject to more of the movement of the surrounding soils in freeze-thaw cycles.

So, for projects where we're laying a single row of pavers (like in a bed edge), or flagstone through turf, we use about 1/2" of sand, and that's it.

[VoodooChile]

Hmmmm....

We always over-dig at least an inch around the stone, for both stability and ease of adjusting the overall flow of the path.

Guess I've walked/repaired too many crappy stepping paths set on bare dirt, or a layer of sand to change my ways, even if your methods are faster.

[PSUscaper]

Speaking for myself here.

When it comes to steppers, I basically do what ever I can to get them done, and done quickly.

For the past 5 years, I have never sold a 'true' stepper stone pathway. What I mean, is this. When ever I do a walkway, the client always wants me to do something with the old stones. I have tried to avoid this, but, it always seems I'm stuck with someone wanting the darn things put somewhere.

Like a fool, I always kind of factor it in to the job as one of those 'gimme's that, I charge a few bucks for, but don't really make money on.

I've finally drawn a line this year. After caculating the man hours involved, it is quite rediculous to even attempt such a thing.

As for selling something like that, and as for the installation technique, I'm pretty much with with stonehenge. Most the time I do not have sand, and no.....I'm not running to the stone yard to pick up a wheel barrel of sand to put 10 steppers in. They go in the ground as is. Cut the sod, level the dirt, and done.

Around here, it is almost impossible to lay out a stepper stone walkway without hitting a BIG rock right where one has to go.

Everything about the darn things is a pain. On top of that, I've done all sorts of base prep. I've dug out like a walkway for them with compacted stone and then soil and sod. I've used sand. I've used mixes of sand and concrete. I've used dust. I've used dirt. The end result always is about the same.

When asked to lay such things, I flat out tell people I figure it on the man hours, materials, and time spent getting all the stuff there. By the time you figure what it takes to get the stones there, install them, replace them (how many of those freakin things break when you jump on that one that never wants to stop wobbling!) most people don't want them.

I think I am just about to the point where I price them out close to what a paver walkway would be.......maybe people will get the hint?

[Stonehenge]

Voodoo – an inch of overdig really isn’t significant; we “overdig” that amount just in the course of digging around the stone with a shovel. And my point is not that the method is faster, but that if this is excavations beneath single stones, going 3-4” down, that my path made with ½” of sand will hold up just as well as the one with 3-4” of stone. It’s a rustic pathway that is not expected to be flawless in it’s installation. If it were, then it should be prepped like a paver patio, which would pretty much preclude any turf growing between the stones.

I’m just saying that if there are two methods that will give you equally durable results, choose the easier of the two.

In the pic below (one we're working on now), it's a full base prep, just like a paver patio.

[EpicInterlock]

My god, that looks like the most labour intensive job I've ever seen, unless you're keeping secrets Jeff. From your picture it looks like you've individually laid each "pebble".

Are you nuts? lol

It looks fantastic though.

As far as excavating for natural stone walkways, I excavate for each individual stone no more than 2-3". If there are any wobble, I just put some extra limestone or dirt, whatever is handy. In a place with a lot of frost (Ontario), I surprisingly never have problems with it. It almost makes me want to do entire driveways and walkways with that stuff.

[Hamons]

Well- I ended up just doing it the tried and true way -- Afraid that if I cut all the sod out then I would need to do a complete base prep because I would lose any stability -- (real or perceived) that i gained from the unbroken ground around the steps.

I was sure that the homeowners understood that this was a rustic path - i think it was exactly what they were looking for. Ended up taking me about 4.5 man hours - so it was s small part of the overall job -- just seemed like there had to be a faster way!

[Mark Oomkes]

I did one several years ago by just cutting out the sod around the flag stone, no overdig, no base other than leveling and so far no problems.

This was also before I knew any better, but fortunately the location is basically a big sand box anyways.

Nice work Jeff, looks awesome.

[Stonehenge]

@ Epic - yup, every stone was hand-fitted into place. Thousands of stones. FYI, anyone wanting to do this should probably charge at least $50/sqft. And they should lay in in a mortar bed over a concrete slab.

[Matt Kulp]

Stone,
Are going to lock everything with Polymeric sand or something else? What type of stone are you using for the design?

That is a good looking job!

[Stonehenge]

Yeah, we laid it over an inch bed of sand (over 6" of crushed stone) that we mixed some Type S into. Once done we carefully blew out the joints as deeply as we could, then filled with polymeric.

Seeing how it looked when it was wet I'm going to try to get the client to OK us sealing the stones as well, to get the stone colors to really pop.