[mstiles]

Recently, I was reading through some of the postings and noticed that lots of you apparently hate the ICPI. I can't say as I hate it, but it has begun to annoy me. I have been installing pavers for almost twenty years and have never taken the course. They send me stuff on it every year and the sales guys at the yard are always telling me "thats the way the industry is headed". This year I was told that they wouldn't be refering any jobs to non-certified contractors. I think that's bull ****. I have given them tons of business and they hardly ever sent any my way, but now they are saying they won't unless I take their stupid course. I don't think I will......interlocking concrete mafia.

[Stonehenge]

I don't hate the ICPI, I just disagree with the organization's "best practices", and have tested their methods against ours and an satisfied that we are doing a better job.

As for your situation - flip things up on that supplier. Challenge them to a paver contest - 50sqft each, on their lot. They install it the ICPI way, you install it your way. They win, you'll take the course (what the heck, you might learn something). You win, and they agree to a situation where they start channeling more leads your way (otherwise you'll take your business elsewhere).

If they believe in the methods, they'll walk their talk.

[AZTLANLC]

I did took the course and don't hate ICPI at all it was money well spend it opened my eyes to new forms of working.
I had have being installing pavers 3 years previously before taking the course using a technique from my former boss and now I understand why some things failed back then.
Not that I use ICPI techniques 100% but like I said before it was worth it.
Now the supplier I think is wrong the way they are approaching it I don't know if they get any commissions from people that pays and take the test or not (by the way I think is only couple of hundreds bucks) but my supplier was offering a $150 certificate to anyone that would take the course sponsor by them.

[familyguy]

Most of the folks in the ICPI "traning" were pretty resentful being there. I really like the IDEA of trying to create a sense of professionalism in the landscape industry wherever we can, however, what the three of us from my company taking the course could agree upon was that they tried to turn about 4 hours of useful training into a weekend seminar.

It just wasn't happening. I really thought at one point that folks were gonna start throwing their sandwiches at the guy who was trying to educate them as far as the way to bid jobs properly because he refused to give a price per square foot. He tried to duck and dodge every attempt and the group kept getting angrier and angrier. Finally, he agreed that he had a production rate and square footage cost he used to "check" his bids as a final review before submitting them. Once the group heard that they wouldn't let up and to this fellas credit he refused to answer the question. (I gave him kudos for not letting folks bully him)

He actually stopped and commented on how rude everyone was. (I was in NJ for the seminar so I had to agree.... you Long Island guys)

Just really doesn't seem to be a very effective way of improving the professionalism of the industry by forcing people into training seminars that are not well thought out. I'm not at all saying that there should not be training. It really needs to be better and not sponsored by the paver guys. Their agenda is simply different in some ways.

Maybe the training could involve oh I don't know, actually touching the pavers...

[agla]

I don't hate it, but you have to understand what it is. It is a marketing machine for concrete landscape products. The purpose of its existence is to turn you and me into unpaid salesman for such products.

They do that by training you so that you are comfortable and confident at installing it, see it as a gold mine, and enough of you are doing it to make the install costs competitive while the product price remains high.

They also do the best they can at putting doubt in your minds that any other products can be effective. I wish I had a dime for each guy under 35 who has told me that you can't use clay brick for walks (never mind driveways). They have also convinced an aweful lot of people that the ways things have been done for centuries with lasting results over those centuries, are going to fail in a year or two. So they build your confidence in their products and erode your confidence in others.

Has anyone noticed that these products are not heavily marketed by ICPI or the manufacturing companies to homeowners? They are instead marketing to us who find their target consumer and we make the sale for them.

I think they are highly effective. I think it is great that so many people are getting trained in building with some effective standards. I also believe that a lot of guys gain confidence in expanding to the use of clay bricks, natural stone, and mortar after the are routinely installing concrete products. That change becomes a baby step as it would be a giant step without ICPI in between.

I also think that some of the natural stone is being consumed as fast as it can be prepared, so they have no need in such marketing. I further expect to see the clay brick industry put together education & training seminars to promote their pruducts.

[mrusk]

If every landscaper took ICPI before going into business and followed the guidlines, the industry would be in much better shape.

[Lanelle]

Having a respectable knowledge of soils, compaction standards and the importance of a properly installed base goes a long way to a successful pavement, regardless of the 'pretty' surface that goes on last. ICPI is a convenient way to gain that knowledge but not the only way. There are a variety of pavements that will yield beautiful results. It's a matter of matching the product to the site and customer.

[TrickyDick]

Everything I know about pavers, which isn't too much, I learned from (in order of importance) this site, product literature, the videos at the ICPI class, experience. Everything I learned at that class I learned in three or four hours of DVD's. I little hands on would go a long way to making it suck less. Didn't get much from the guy from Texas teaching the class who didn't know the ground freezes in New England. He sure was excited about finding out where the strip clubs were though. Including drive time, and I hope my foreman isn't offended that our quality time in the truck for 8 hours wasn't a net positive for me, that was 24 hours of my life that I will never ever get back. Not to mention the dollars.

Good thing I'm certified though....someday someone might ask.

Probably not though....

[Matt Kulp]

ICPI is a great tool and I looked at it as just another seminar. I do think there is some value in being certified, due to the marketing value it presents. I will say this, there are alot of hands on classes starting to sprout up (Pave Tech, etc..) that are taking it one step further and I believe will be a standard for most manufacturers in the future. I think that the manufacturers are seeing the decreased value with ICPI certification among contractors and will look for any advantage to promote concrete pavers. I am pleased to see that ICPI and NCMA are creating multi level certifications in order to broaden the knowledge of installers. I do agree with one aspect of ICPI and that is atleast they are setting standards for the industry. You may disagree with some, but I don't know of any other entity that is setting guidelines for the industry.