[mrusk]

Whats the proper method to install wet layed bluestone?

I am bidding a big job right now where i am specing dry lay blue stone. I know wet layed looks alittle better, but i do not know the proper installation methods.

I KNOW my competitor on this job will come in with wet lay in his proposal.

I have a idea of how its done, i just want your 'experts' methods. I'd most likely sub it all out.

If i could do dry layed for X amount a square foot, how much more would wet layed be?

The main thing i am worried about is that dry lay might look cheesey compared to the neighbors wet lay.

Matt

[agla]

Wet laid runs 20-25% more in my area. It is done by excavating down so that you can pour a 4" thick steel reinforced slab with expansion joints (not control joints) where necessary. You have to take into account about a 1" mud joint under the stone and you also have to realize that you will need fairly consistant thickness in your bluestone. Extra thick pieces wll stick up too high and thinner ones will need a lot more mortar.

You also have to have those expansion joints on the surface when they are present. You can not put a mortar joint over them because they need to be flexible or they wil crack. There are products that make a flexible seal over these areas.

You may want to consider bluestone that is saw cut to a perfect thickness for ease of installation. These tend to be higher quality stone with even surfaces simply because they don't use stone that might break when they invest in saw cutting them.

I think you should experiment with doing this before you bid on a job. Redoing it would be very costly.

Unless it is a pool area, I would expect that the client will go with dry laid stone.

[neversatisfiedj]

Just install a dry lay with polymeric sand joints. Cheaper install.

[John Palasek]

We use fibermesh concrete (fiberglass reinforced) to stretch the distance between control joints.

Two other things to consider:

1. Use two to three-inch thick pieces on any visible perimeters to make it seem as if the entire surface is that thick. It gives the edge visual dimension. Running a one-inch thick piece of bluestone along a visible edge looks cheap and bush-league. Use one-inch material in the field as this will be backed by mortar anyway and it will save you money on materials.

We use a full two to three-inch thickness throughout only if it's a dry-laid job because we need the weight of the stone to help hold it in place. We'll use one-inch material in a dry-laid fashion in an informal walk or patio. But if the stability of the surface is critical, then we go thicker.

2. Make suer to put a raked finish on the concrete slab before it sets up as this will offer much more tooth for the mortar to bite into.


-JP


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[mrusk]

Most likely it will dry layed with polymeric sand. I just wanted to ask abou the wet layed method. If i went wet lay i would sub it all out.

The flat work on the job consist of 2 walkways and a pool deck.

The front of the house is red brick. I found some clay pavers that are almost an exact match to the house brick. I am going to use that for the boarder on the bluestone walk. I think that is going to look great.

[Stonehenge]

JP - is the fibermesh concrete flexible enough to handle the movements at a control joint? I'm not familiar with the method and am curious.

[John Palasek]

Fibermesh doesn't eliminate the need for control joints, it just allows for larger areas between control joints. It also eliminates the need for rebar or remesh in small applications (like patios and pool decks).

There are millions of tiny fiberglass "hairs" in the concrete mix which act as reinforcement to tie the matrix together. It's very flexible and resists cracking much better than a standard mix. The only issue I have with fibermesh is that it has a narrower window for finishing than regular concrete. If you wait too long to finish it, (if you begin to lose your "cream") the hairs tend to stick out of the surface. Unlike regular concrete, you can't just add a little water to bring the cream back enough to hide them. They do wear off eventually, but it takes a while. But it CAN be finished just like regular concrete, you just have to be a bit quicker about it.

As far as flexibility at the control joints, the concrete will crack like it normally does. But if you're using an expansion joint, it's better to use a plastic joint rather than a fabric joint because the fibers will stick to the fabric joint but not to the plastic. A worst-case scenario with a fabric joint might be a bit of crumbilng but no serious cracks or breakage. The plastic joints prevent both.

Besides, setting up plastic joints is easier anyway.


-JP



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[rye]

Originally posted by agla
You also have to have those expansion joints on the surface when they are present. You can not put a mortar joint over them because they need to be flexible or they wil crack. There are products that make a flexible seal over these areas.

what material do you recommend for expansion joints, and for the flexible seal ?

[agla]

Most people use a material that is like an asphalt/wood fiber product in btween slabs. It is available in building supply stores and home centers. I'm sure you have seen it in sidewalks or in other construction where two concrete bodies would otherwise touch.

[jamesn162]

excavate
4in concrete pad with control joints
mortar bed to set the slate in
doing your joints at the end
the key is to clean the stones as you go along with just water
i always include sealing it after im done in my price

[agla]

Control joints are usually enough, but in situations such as swimming pool decks, you need expansion joints. When you need them, this is the usual product. Then you have to use a flexible material rather than mortar over the expansion joint. The company that I used to work for uses a product called decoseal for that. It comes in colors to match your mortar. ....just don't spill it.