[TrickyDick]

I am starting to work on a project for this spring and need a little advice. Client has a rectangular pool surrounded by a mortared bluestone terrace. The terrace is then bounded by a curved retaining wall (I think its brick but not sure if there's anything else under that) that is about four feet high and about ten feet from the pool at the furthest point (the middle). They want to remove most of the bluestone and replace it with turf leaving only one course of 2x2 bluestone coping around the pool. I don't know how thick the slab is that the bluestone is set on and I will have to remove it all and dig down deep enough to provide drainage (through the wall) for the turf. My concern is this- How careful do I need to be about removing that slab? How easy would it be to crack the pool lining if I'm hammering a slab a few feet away? Is there anything else I should be worried about structurally? This doesn't seem like that big a deal to me but a little crack in a newly resurfaced pool could ruin my month pretty quick.

[Lanelle]

Let me get this straight: The client wants to take out the rather narrow pool deck so that the turf is almost to the edge of the pool. Since it was deck, it will be fairly level land that will invite foot traffic.

I dunno.....Seems like an invitation to have mud and turf debris in the pool. A planted landscape/garden space could be attractive and limit foot traffic. I'm just not convinced that this is a sound concept.

And taking out the deck can be risky.

[TrickyDick]

First- I have done maintenance on properties with pools where grass grows right to the edge and it is fine. Yeah you get a few grass clippings in the pool from mowing and on peoples feet but it is not a big deal. The mower guy takes five minutes to run a net through the water and anyway...that's why God made pool skimmers. Some people really like the look- very clean but lush and alive at the same time. Foot traffic will be minimal here but even if it were heavy I don't see why it would be a problem.

Second- A green terrace is a hell of a lot cooler than a stone one. This is full sun most of the day. Planting other than grass is not an option because anything higher than the terrace grade will eliminate the water view from in the pool.

Third- This is a pretty formal garden on a high end property that will be used as a vacation home. This turf area, and a few others, will both cool down the space and help to create a more formal geometry.

It was the client's concept, maybe not what I would have proposed, but I'm comfortable enough with it to work with them on it. What I'm not fully comfortable with are the structural risks in removing the slab.

[mrusk]

Honestly my favorite look is a formal pool with no pool deck!

However, it takes alot of guts to recommened it to a customer! Its alot cheaper to plant grass than do a stone deck!

I am guessing the pool is gunite. What i would do it get a saw with a good diamound blade. You might want to get one with a 16in blade. Cut the slab all the way through where you are going to remove.

If you can't get all the way through, jack hammer in the saw cut. Try your best to cut the slab into 2x2 squares or something you can easily move with a skid steer or mini x. I'd do whatever possible to limit jack hammer and to avoid a big pile of ruble.

You may want to make your first cut a foot back from your from where you acctually need to cut it. This will help advoid damaging the section of slab you are saving. If you get what i am saying.

Matt

[agla]

I'm with Matt 100%. If it is built well, it won't be a picnic. Expect rebar every couple of feet and 4" of concrete.

You might want to cut the bluestone along the proposed edge and then remove the rest of the bluestone from the slab. You could then cut the slab several inches away from the bluestone. I would expect 1.5" bluestone on 1" of mud. That would give you 2.5" of loam over a small lip if you don't want to get too fancy cutting the slab close.

The slab should not be directly attached to the gunite (note the word "should"). The coping should be directly attached to the gunite then there should be expansion material betwen the slab and gunite and probably a rubbery mortar colored sealant in place of an actual mortar joint around the coping.

Look around the decking for either long uninterupted mortar joints or other expansion sealers to give you clues where there may be planned separations in the slabs. Often there are some of these coming off the corners on rectangular pools. Sometimes banding or other changes in stone pattern are used to disguise where expansion joints are located. Finding them may help you plan a strategy for removal that lets you get away with less cutting by taking advantage of hidden existing seams.


This shows where a joint sealant will go. It is temporarily filled with foam padding to keep debris out. Later on the foam was removed and some sand was put in to take up some space and then a liquid sealant that matched the mortar was poured to seal it up. The sealant bonds tightly to the stone to form a waterproof joint that stretches and contracts as the slab moves through freeze thaw or whatever.

Here is what it looks like at another pool.

[ckcland]

Sorry to state the obvious but you should find a guy in your area that has "pool" hardscape experience. This project could obviously be a real challenge/nightmare for you. Most guys with poll decking experience will find the time to walk a site with you and make some suggestions. I agree with most all of what was said above, you just have so much more to consider (labor) when your dealing with pools (expansion) that it could cost you (cracking liners) dearly.

[TrickyDick]

Thanks guys. I expect removing that slab to be a huge pain, even more so because there is no equipment access, the rubble would have to be removed by hand. What Matt suggested is exactly what I was thinking- cut the slab into as small pieces as possible to minimize the hammering involved. Only problem with that is I don't know how thick the slab is yet. If I can't cut through it obviously there will be more hammering.

ck- Why would expansion be an issue? I'm not going to install new hardscape against the pool, only remove the old. Beautiful pool by the way.

I obviously don't have experince hardscaping around pools so if you all really thought this was that complicated I might consider involving someone else but from what I'm hearing it sounds like the only real issue is the possibility of cracking the liner through hammering near it. If that is the case I will make sure the clients understand all the risks and sign off on it if this is what they really want.

[agla]

I don't think it is a big deal at all. The pool had to be structurally engineered in your area, so it is likely that the rebar in the pool is less than 12' apart and the gunite is a foot thick. Gunite is strong stuff. A lot stronger than the slab. I really dont think the slab will be any thicker than 4" and rebar will probably be no closer than 4' OC. Most likely it is less.

[mrusk]

Ck beautiful pool!! You should of cut the pavers on the boarder course around the curves of the pool!!! You can't use wedges on a job like that!!

[TrickyDick]

Thanks Agla. I think I've gotten what I was looking for.

[mrusk]

Heres another tip for anyone that does pavers around a pool. They make skimmer lids that you can put concrete in. So basically you can die the crete and score it to match your paver deck. This gives the jobs alittle something extra.