[secondnature]

I do designwork, and my drawings get passed on to installers for a variety of hardscape/install work. Sometimes I am involved, and sometimes I am not.

Wondering if installers would take a minute and let me know what sort of details are important for them to get on a designed plan that would assist in getting the design installed as shown on the plan?

Do most of you get an opportunity to meet with the designer and go over the details?

Let's say that I have designed a wooden pergola over an entrance area on a house. I know that the front of the house is huge, and that the proportion of the pergola needs to be larger
and more bulky in porportion. Do I need to call out the size of lumber I think would look best? I think this is where issues could arise as to the end result.

Do photos help? I know it is all about communicating vision into reality! I have had good and not so good experiences in this department. Even after meeting with the installer, I have seen the plan really not even looked at, and measurements not taken even before laying out the structure or the groundwork for the landscape. The design is basically glanced at and not followed as shown.

I have also not been detailed enough in my describing of the work to be done, and not being as involved as I should have, and it does not turn out to be my vision, which the customer has paid for.

Trying to narrow down the routine.....

Thanks!

[Paul]

From my point of view if you want something done to a certain size or way, you better put it on the plans.

There is not much we haven't done but we can't read minds (as much as we try) yet and I know the foremen can't.

Give us dimensions, center lines, arc's and offsets, spec the material and color. If we have a problem we can come to you with it, if we have a better idea I'll open my mouth to you not to the owner. If you like it or have to change something it's in your hands not mine (other than the change order $$$)

[Stonehenge]

Callouts to elevations of various hardscape (or even softscape) elements would be great, or even a separate elevation view/plan.

[chesie]

Honestly, from some of the designs I have seen lately I would just like to see elements that are even possible to build. This is not true with all designs but many just are not workable....they look good on paper but that is about it.

[jwholden]

Remember you are dealing with two different midsets.

You design something that has to be 'just so' and you sweated over the details for hours.

Most contractors are interested in getting the job done in the quickest manner possible so they can get their check and move on to the next job.

Give the details, but only those details that are pertinent to the job. Can you make a seperate sheets detailing the layout for the paver area or pergola so no one gets confused.

It comes down to how much your client is willing to pay for the detail you design. If they want it exactly as you specefied they should hire you to hire and manage the subs. You would make daily, or twice a day site visits to make sure everything is going ok or if the contractor needs anything.

Try to encourage the contractor to take ownership in OUR project. No one gets excited over doing it exactly as the desigener drew it. Especially if the designer insists that the edge of the walk be recut because the it is 1" off the ine.

What if the designer asked for some input from the guy installing the job? Do you think the contractor would take more ownership in the project? Would he be happier about what he is installing?

[Inspired]

All good ideas.

I will always try to get the home owner to agree that we should all (the contractor, the homeowner and myself) have at least one meeting on site before work begins. Leave your card so the installer can contact you with questions. It's better to visit the jobs a key times while the installation is in progress, but the homeowner won't always pay for it.

I always draw in 4',8' or 16' per inch scale. That way an installer can pull out a tape measure, lay it on the plan and easily figure out the distances, offsets and arcs himself.

For larger properties where greater then 16' per inch or 1-20 is needed to get the whole project on a site plan, I'll include for the installer seperate sheets at 4' per inch. This way he can easily see every detail.

[Paul]

Almost forgot! Put the scale on the plan both graphically and in numbers so I can check!

The more detail you give a plan the more a good contractor should get out of it. Many plans that we deal with have great detail, calling elevation, radius's, measurement's and dimensions some even down to the pattern of the brick and direction of install. All the plans we get are done with cad, Autocad being the most used. So when you do a detail you can save it for future reference along with many manufactures having pre-drawn details that you can load into you detail sheet or sheets.

[TrickyDick]

I will never understand why installers think it's okay to take a design that a client paid good money for and do what they want with it. When I install someone elses design and the designer is not involved with the install I try to get everything as close to exact as I can. That way when the owner says "why are those plants so close together/ far apart/ ugly/ stupid/ etc" it is not my problem to explain and nobody can argue that it should be redone at my expense. If I am asked for my ideas I am happy to share them but if I am not I will keep my mouth shut or, if there's a problem with how something is designed I'll bring it up with the designer and let them make the decision.

All the suggestions above are great, especially having a graphic scale.

Exact plant counts (even for perennials) and cultivars should always be included. And it's hard to do if you're not involved with the install but it is really important to know where substitutions are okay and where they are not. Does it have to be the lily you found in that obscure, two year old catalogue or can I substitute something easier to find? Can I substitute Alpen Gluen hydrangea if the nursery I want to order from is out of nikko blue?

And this isn't absolute but it's really helpful if you have a pretty good idea of local availability. An installer shouldn't have to go to 6 different nurseries for a $10k job.

[secondnature]

I have actually had quite a few installers meet with me, go over the plan in person together, and I feel they understand.

Then, I show up on the day they are starting the layout, and it is FEET off from what is shown on the plan. Not even a tape measure is layed out to organize the space, so basically the plan is disregarded!

Needless to say, the customer is then upset, as they have paid $$ for my ideas, and they are not utilized. Especially when the installer has already used herbacide and killed morer grass then they needed to....then THEY are upset! Needless to say, I do not refer to these installers again.

I have thought recently that for clients that are hiring out (and, for that matter, homeowners that are installing themselves) that I would up my price a bit and do the layout myself. That way, it will be done following the design.

Do other designers you have worked with do this?

[TrickyDick]

I think that if I ever had a reason to do design work for other installers I would insist on supervising the install- at least the initial stages of it to make sure the contractor is on the right page. It is also important to be there because, as I'm sure you know, things often look different on the ground than on paper. I always find myself switching a few plants around or changing the shape of a bed a little once I get on site. I think the real key though is to create relationships with a few good contractors so you don't have to worry about it any more. If you respect each other's abilities and can trust them to do the job right you won't feel the need to be present as much.

[secondnature]

[quote]Originally posted by jwholden
[b]Remember you are dealing with two different midsets.

You design something that has to be 'just so' and you sweated over the details for hours.

Most contractors are interested in getting the job done in the quickest manner possible so they can get their check and move on to the next job.

Give the details, but only those details that are pertinent to the job. Can you make a seperate sheets detailing the layout for the paver area or pergola so no one gets confused.

It comes down to how much your client is willing to pay for the detail you design. If they want it exactly as you specefied they should hire you to hire and manage the subs. You would make daily, or twice a day site visits to make sure everything is going ok or if the contractor needs anything.

Try to encourage the contractor to take ownership in OUR project. No one gets excited over doing it exactly as the desigener drew it. Especially if the designer insists that the edge of the walk be recut because the it is 1" off the ine.

What if the designer asked for some input from the guy installing the job? Do you think the contractor would take more ownership in the project? Would he be happier about what he is installing?

Yep, you are correct! The visionary-designer and the make-it-happen installer DO have different mindsets! Both are essential to creating a great landscape!

I am hoping at some point to have a working relationship with an installer where we know what to expect from each other going both directions! I do feel that it would be beneficial to be more involved in the implementation of my designwork...I guess it depends on the client and what they are willing to pay.

[secondnature]

Thanks to all for the great feedback!

I try to not present ideas that are "pie in the sky", and I think that this is where the "two differrent mind sets" comes in. The visionary and the "make-it-happen" people!!

I almost always include photos of what I envision for an aspect, as needed, as I think a picture speaks a thousand words.

If there is a piece that is part of the design, like a pergola lets say, and I don't have a good photo of what I have in mind, I will attempt to draw a sketch showing the parts of it that are important to me. I wont even attempt to include the bolt size, etc., as that is not my area of expertise. I would only hope that the person creating the bid will call me and discuss any gray areas they may experience.

QUESTIONS:

1. Do most of you get the opportunity to have a "debriefing" with the person who created the design before you bid a job? Do you think this is helpful in proceeding with the bid?

2. Is it more common for the designer to come out and check out the progress of an install? Would it be helpful to you to have the designer come out and layout the pathways, beds, etc. with stakes, spraypaint, etc before you begin the work??

3. Can you say that you enjoy working with the design person, having them be a part of the process? I know that it probably can be frustrating as it takes more time which we are all short of.

Thanks

[ecoscapes]

I own a landscaping company and went to the Univ. of Minnesota for landscape design. I design my own projects that I install. I have also installed other designers work. I find that the key is communication it doesn't matter how you do it! I think most installers learn by seeing -- it is best to get on site. Would you rather have a map to the treasure chest or would you like Captain Jack Sparrow to guide you to it. I found that designers get an ego-- because if they didn't they couldn't sell their ideas/plans. I've also found that there are a ton of designers that know nothing about plants. I end up changing plantings around cause I know they won't work, because of size, light req., water, spacing, or etc. I love installing my own designs cause I can read my own mind. I believe all designers should have to work one summer as an installer before working as a designer.

It all comes down to communication though.

[agla]

Yes, it comes down to communication. But communication is sometimes limited by what the client wants to spend on a design. Karla can't spend three hours detailing out each piece of that pergola, if the client is unwilling to pay for that time.

Sometimes the best we can do is to sell a plan without details. If we include details we sometimes price ourselves out of a job. A good layout plan will show dimensions, not only of what is to be built, but the layout dimensions of those elements from existing structures such as the house, where the center of arcs are located, distance from face of wall (F.O.W.) and the point of beginning (P.O.B.) from which all dimensioning starts. Raddii, spot elevations, and proposed contours are a good idea as well.

Designers doing hardscapes should either be working from a surveyed topographic plan of the lot, or should have the equipment to gather topo info themselves before drawing up plans. There is nothing worse than getting a plan that shows three 6" steps where there needs to be six. Garbage in = garbage out. Anytime that elevations are critical, you have to stress that you need to take these measurements and make calculations that have to be considered in the design fee, or the landscaper will be left to figure it out.

I still think it is best to price out a plan and make it clear that any details can be supplied at an additional cost. That keeps you from losing the job. Once you get the design going, they become more confident and will usually see the value in paying for some more details where they are necessary.

It is important to leave as little as possible to interpretation not only for the integrity of the design, but so that all bidders are bidding to do the same thing. It would not be right to let the hacks land the job because the guy that would build it right is $10k higher.

In the case of a pergola, you can specify that it is from a specific manufacturer, or equal. You could also have a custom fence company submit a bid with details - they usually do this.

PS. Karla, did you get my PM from last week?