[TrickyDick]

Okay I thought I knew this but I've heard some things lately that have me questioning...what is a face/foot of wall? Is it one side only or both faces. Is it different for stacked stone and for interlocking concrete? How many face feet in a 1x1x1 section of wall? I feel like a idiot asking this but....what are anonymous forums for?

[letsgetstoned]

I don't think it's a dumb question....I would also like to know more about this, AND, how it should be priced out to the customer. Should the cost of a wall be per stone, or per face/foot of wall? Can someone give a typical cost?

[agla]

It is a square foot of finished wall. A 3' high 20' long retaining wall is 60 FF. The same wall as a freestanding wall 2' thick would be 60 FF on one side, 60 FF more on the other side, 6 FF on one end, and 6 FF on the other end for a total of 132 FF. I don't know of anyone counting the top unless it is natural stone wall that is capped. That is usually done by linear feet with a price based on the material (such as 18" bluestone treadstock @ $x per LF).

[Stonehenge]

What agla said.

As for pricing - it should be according to what allows you to put a rook over your head, food on your plate, and some cash in an IRA.

We charge by the project, not by the face foot.

[Ston Wurks]

What Agla said is correct . . .

No one can determine your priciing but yourself. You've got a fixed nut to cover each month, you've got payroll, you've got material cost, incidentials, profit margin, etc.

Only you know those things-or should know those things.

Some of my friends/colleagues in the stone business have reached an elite type status that allows them to charge at a premium----the art thing.

i even know a couple of old-timers who still charge by the ton installed . . . tho' those types are fallin quickly off.

[agla]

Face foot alone might not be the way to price a job, but you better know how many face feet are involved in the job when you go to price it. And you should know how much is generally costs you to produce a face foot.

[Pelican]

Face foot can be used to estimate your material requirements, that's about it. There are many variables in constructing a wall that will effect pricing, is the base level? Wall straight or curved? Retaining wall or decorative? Each question represents a different level of work required and gets priced accordingly.

[TrickyDick]

Thanks- that's what I thought but I had heard some things recently that had me thinking I might be mistaken.

Regarding pricing...I have to say that it bothers me a little that every time someone asks a question about pricing (hourly rates for this, square foot pricing for that) everyone responds with "it depends on your costs, goals, production, specifics of the site, etc. which, while a completely true and valid answer, doesn't help the guy who has never laid pavers before and just wants to know if he is even NEAR the ballpark with their price. Even if the answer is "we charge anywhere from $6-15/ sq ft for a paver patio depending on..." or we can do an average, mortared, stacked stone wall for $40-60/ face foot" that is helpful to someone who can price the materials but has no idea how long it will take them. For example, because of a recent post I have a vague idea what paver installation rates are in Phoenix. All that means to me is that I will definately not be moving my business to Phoenix and doing paver work but to someone in that area who is thinking of adding pavers as a service even a vague idea is valuable.

This is just my opinion but I would guess that most contractors new to the game tend to under price services because it is so hard to figure out what competitive pricing is and they are afraid to price too high and lose work. That drives prices down and hurts everybody. I think that a lot of the inexperienced "low ballers" that we all have to deal with are low balling out of ignorance rather than out of a desire to undercut established companies.

[Ston Wurks]

"it depends on your costs, goals, production, specifics of the site, etc. which, while a completely true and valid answer,

But it does depend on those things, if you have no real idea what your cost are (overhead) labor rates, experience levels, etc. . . . you shouldn't be bidding patios. . . . which usually wind up being under bid.

Leading to shoddy work, more black eyes for the business, and another guy going out of business, because he had no idea what it took to be in business-let alone this business.

[bcx400]

I think having an idea of what a face foot of wall prices at is helpful when speaking with customerts about budgets. While I try not to 'ballpark' prices (the customer always remebers the ballpark number as a quote) having square foot numbers for pavers and face foot numbers for walls is helpful.

That being said- I always price out jobs based on estimated labor and materials, and then check to see whare my square foot/face foot pricing falls. Pavers usually fall between $15-20.00 per square foot installed and dry-laid PA Fieldstone walls usually fall between $50-$60.00 per face foot installed. Of course there are factors that may justify charging more.

You definetly do not want to get into the habit of pricing jobs by the square foot or any other unit of measure. You will eventually lose money- sooner than later.

[Raj Venugopal]

Here's another perspective re pricing.

Experience will be your teacher.

We're still learning, but a few under-priced jobs were the best teachers. Did one job last year where the complexity matched the budget, and we all walked away happy.

If you're using multi-sized stone (concrete) in a random stack your time and effort will be greater than one size laid row by row. While a flag wall may cost less for materials per ff, the labour/time may be much higher.

Plus, it's all in the basework. I blew our budget out of the water this weekend for a retaining wall/steps by getting squirrely about some clay in a hill and taking out 15 yards to have a clean slate.

When in doubt, take it out. Just make sure you bill for it.