[Nathaniel Carr]

Does everybody out there lay bluestone like I do?

We prep our base to pitch where we want our water to go, lay a couple inches of loose stone dust (1/4 inch-) then start laying from the high side, ie. against the building (for a patio, against the base of the steps for a walkway) and then run down hill. We use a 8 inch spackle knife to smooth the dust. When we are setting the stones we pitch them to go with the base, using a level so the bubble just kisses the line on a two foot level. And when we have the rock sitting pretty we will pack dust under the edges with the head of a dead blow hammer. Lastly we bash the stone a few times with the deadblow, then we check to make sure it is still level across and pitching properly. At the end of the job we sweep in dust into the cracks.

We get good results with this system but it does take some time. Especially if the stones are all cleft on the bottoms. Our suppliers say they will be getting gauged material this year, about time.

I want to know if anyone out there uses strings lines exclusively. I find that the guys can get a little fixated on "chasing the bubble".

Ever notice that by introducing a technology to improve results can lead to unexpected consequences? Like using a level on a natural dry stack stone wall. The level should be used to keep you within reason and to train the eye, but it ends up being used to lay each stone prefectly level. Adding untold hours to the cost of the project, and bringing accusations from the stone guys that the estimating department bungled another one. Funny huh? But I guess that belongs in a different forum....

I am hoping to institute any new methods early in the season so the guys get all of their belly aching out of the way before it gets hot and we all get "ornry".

[John Palasek]

.

Nathaniel,



I agree with you.

I think technology is a great thing, but I also believe that it can be a cumbersome crutch as well.

Like your stacked stone example. Been there, done that, and yes, a level is more for a general reference than an absolute target.

Besides, a little dip here or a little bump there gives a stone wall a more natural look.
I absolutely hate perfectly level and perfectly fitted stacked stone walls. I admire the effort that went into it, but the look is "too perfect".

As for string lines, I swear by them, provided, of course that we're not talking more than about twenty feet or so. Beyond that, the weight of the string actually causes it to bow and it becomes useless.

We did a "Broken Ice" bluestone patio a couple of years ago and we did it the same way you described, except for the fact that we cut each stone to fit, which is part of the overall look.

We prepared a base of crushed aggregate and then set the stones on a bluestone dust. Not really a "dust" but more like the consistency of fine rock salt, (if that makes any sense). We pitch very slightly towards the yard, but most of the drainage occurs withing the patio itself, much like a paver patio would.

That has a lot to do with the cleft in each stone, obviously, and it's impossible to get every single stone to have both an "A" side and a perfect cleft, so a few minor compromises are necessary.

But, just like the stacked stone wall, a little impaerfection makes it look that much more natural.


Check out the link below to see our version of a "Broken Ice" patio.

-JP



http://www.jonkardesign.com/stone%20banda6.htm

[johnkeegan]

You really should be installing the standard 6 inch mechanically tamped crushed stone base and THEN 1-2" of stone dust to set the bluestone in. The principle is the same as with pavers. The base is needed to stop the freeze/thaw cycles and, therefore, stop any heaving.
When you set the 6" base I'd suggest using a laser transit (1 man operation) to get it close, then add stone dust to account for the varied stone thicknesses as you go along. Check for consistency of pitch as proceed.
When doing a wide patio, instead of string lines, I like to set spikes or short pieces of rebar at the correct final grade using the laser and use them as reference points as I work along. Personally, I hate string lines. Very inaccurate and annoying when you're carrying a 24"x36" piece of bluestone... Hope that helps.

[dan deutekom]

Nathaniel
The way you do it is pretty much the way I do it to.

Sometimes I have noticed that even though a job is "perfect on the Bubble" it will look all wrong. Sometimes you just have to build things a little off kilter due to the lie of the land or the crooked building, fence or drive just to make it look right.

[HardDaysKnight]

Like Johnn keegan, I cant stand string lines. I keep yelling at
everyone to atop hitting the line but I am the biggest violater.
I can eye it up pretty well and use a level for reference. I would
say that a 2 inch base is not sufficient unless you are using
large mass blues with a 4" plus thickness. Does anyone find
that the stone dust lifts up and never stays in place,
tracking it in the house, or having to be swept often for
a neater look. I prefer grass seams or mortar joints.

[johnkeegan]

We lay them extremely tight but I also see now they have a sort of "polymeric stone dust" that should stay in place better.

[Nathaniel Carr]

Thanks for responding guys...
Just to clarify, we always install our flat work over a 6 to 8 inch base of "sure pack" (1 1/2 -) tamped in 4 inch lifts. My real rub is that Bluestone is time consuming for the crew to install. And instead of designing the job with pavers, I am looking for time saving tips.

Last summer we laid a walk with a rise in it that was steeper than the level would read and you would have thought the sky had fallen! Nobody could figure out that they should just go with the string. It seemed like they went faster than they do using levels to check their rock umpteen times.

[Fine Edge]

We actually built 2 small 1/2 circle walls in my clients front yard that were level when finished. Just like it was supposed to look.
But when we stood 10 feet away, at the road, it looked unlevel because of the 2 different pitches of the land. I couldn't believe how off it looked when I wasn't right on top of it.
So, to make the client happy, we reworked the top of the wall so it is now unlevel.
Just goes to show that sometimes a level, transit or string won't get the job done.
On a flagstone project set in screenings or a sand base, we'll use a line or a long level just to get the same pitch. I also tell my clients if they want something that's not going to move or settle, let's pour a concrete base. But even a little settling with 2" flagstone in a spot or 2 makes it look more natural.

[johnkeegan]

This may sound obvious but the best way to increase the efficency of laying bluestone is to only let your most efficent "stone guy(s)" lay it... It's not for everyone.
Some employees that are by nature very meticulous can really get bogged down when working with stone. Get them off the job before they drive everyone nuts arguing about which stone should go where ..."that's not the way I'd do it"..etc.
Also having your 2 best stone guys on the same walk or patio isn't such a good idea sometimes, either. They're always fighting over pieces of stone and since each person tends to favor a certain type of pattern (consciously or not), when they're done the pattern might not flow naturally.
On most jobs we have a crew come in and do all the base prep and place the materials in a convenient spot. Then we leave one guy to lay the walk, patio or stone wall. The rest of the crew then moves on to another job, be it hardscaping, planting or ponds. Makes for a very efficent use of man hours. (And less bickering!)
Plus, when the job is done, take a picture of it and give it to the guy who laid the stone. It will make him proud and also force him to take responsibility for the final product.

[agla]

John,

What did you mean when you said you lay it extremely tight?

[johnkeegan]

I meant the seams between the pieces are as tight as possible. I see alot of cut bluestone jobs that have seems that are a few inches wide and packed with stone dust, which inevitably washes out and is replaced with dirt and weeds. We butt them as close as possible. Even the irregular flagging is cut and shaped to fit fairly tightly.

[Nathaniel Carr]

John,
Does that mean that you are cutting every piece to fit?

We are going to use dimensional material this year so we can get our gaps smaller. We will pay more but it will be faster.

And what about using poly sand? If you were really concerned about the stone dust moving around couldn't you just sweep in portland cement or something?

We find that after you sweep, wet, sweep, wet and let it be all of the dust that was going to move, has.

[johnkeegan]

We generally don't have to cut the "cut bluesone" (18"x24", 24"x30" etc.) except for the outside curves and it fits tight because of the square sides. The "irregular" flagging comes in random shapes and sizes and for the that to fit tightly it generally needs to be cut. Even then it won't fit as tight as the cut bluestone but it's suppose to look more informal, so that's OK. I just don't like the walks or patios that are set with large gaps that make you feel as though you have to "hopscotch" along...which is especially dangerous if you're an older person or little kid with small feet (or heels). It may look quaint in a magazine photo but it's annoying to walk on.

[site]

You can keep the guys from fighting about patterns by laying the whole thing out on a piece of graph paper first. You can fiddle with the layout until it's just right and then order exactly the right number of stones. It really speeds thing up. Make sure to photocopy the original map- they get ruined pretty fast on the jobsite.
Dont forget to lift up each stone to search for hollow spots in the base. If you leave those hollow spots behind you will be dealing with settlement

[HardDaysKnight]

Originally posted by site
You can keep the guys from fighting about patterns by laying the whole thing out on a piece of graph paper first. You can fiddle with the layout until it's just right and then order exactly the right number of stones. It really speeds thing up. Make sure to photocopy the original map- they get ruined pretty fast on the jobsite.
Dont forget to lift up each stone to search for hollow spots in the base. If you leave those hollow spots behind you will be dealing with settlement

That's interesting. I would think it would take much longer
and instesd of using the shapes given to you in breakage
do you shape them to the illustration? I do all this solo and
I breeze through it now. I never drew it out first. I'm curious
now.