[mrgreen_perth]

I've just been to start a job this morning and discovered the pavers the client has are 'seconds' for size as well (thickness mainly).

When I quoted the job, the client had already ordered and paid for these pavers and the supplier was holding them in their yard awaiting delivery instructions. I made it quite clear then, that there would be no problem laying the 'seconds' pavers if discolouration was the only problem. Client assured me that this was the only reason for them being seconds.

Anyway, I have told the client that we don't install seconds (size problems) pavers, and she has virtually begged us to do the job and offered to pay a little extra etc etc. There is no problem with receiving payment for what we have done so far, but I still feel kind of 'morally' obliged to complete the job. (If I can find a way that it won't become a nightmare!)

The pavers are brick pavers that measure 220 x 110 x 60 mm (approx 10 x 5 x 2.5"). The thickness difference between between some pavers varies by up to about 11mm ( 1/2"). We would normally lay pavers onto a compacted, screeded sand base. We're on a sand plain here, so don't need to put down roadbase unless it's for vehicle traffic.

Is there another easy way that we could complete the job without setting each paver individually?

What crossed my mind was only lightly (??) compacting/screeding (for gradient & run-off), installing pavers, then running vibrating plate (with carpet under plate) over the top to level pavers to each other - I just think this has a high potential to sink over time causing dips and humps.

Another thought is to do the base prep as normal, then throw a light layer of loose sand on before laying pavers, then vibrating plate (with carpet) over the top...

Suggestions anyone??

BTW the total area for the job is about 125 square metres (~1300 sq ft) being laid ia 90 degree herringbone pattern. No restrictions to laying pattern though, so if someones idea involves different pattern thats okay.

Thanks!

[Stonehenge]

Wow - someone's trying to go cheap on a project that big? I feel your pain...

I would think your best hope would be to do as you suggest, lay them on a thick bed of sand, then compact the heck out of them, hoping they settle out OK.

You'll probably break a few pavers in the process, but it might work.

And I think collecting a little extra $$ for this would certainly be appropriate.

My $.02, anyway.

[Matt Kulp]

Have you checked the width measurements of the pavers. I have had run ins with 2nds and the width differences were as bad as the height differences. I would check that carefully, if they are different I would really take a hard look at completing the job under these terms. It is almost impossible to keep any kind of bond lines, and especially with Herringbone.

[LandArts]

That's the kind of customer I run away from.

[Stonehenge]

Good point, Matt. A lot of times a basket weave pattern will be more forgiving with non-uniform pavers. We do that a lot with sand molded clay pavers.

[Bill Schwab]

For the most part, we will not install jobs where the clients have any say other than choosing materials. If they want to buy them, we don't take the work.

What I would suyggest for future is you place in you estimates a materials consistency clause. If you can show significant inconsistencey, stop the job and renegotiate the price. If they don't want to pat T&M, bail out and let some whack and hack deal with it.

[scl]

Others have already stressed it, but I concur. Lay at least an inch of sand, maybe 1.5" for that big of discrepency. WHy are you using carpet under the plate? Are they textured pavers? If not, let 'em have the full force of the plate. I never use a pad, just a little extra sand. Maybe use a spacer to widen gaps if widths are vaarying, like a 4d nail, and run those string lines. You'll get real close, it will look okay. I'm with Jeff, use Herring bone.

[mrgreen_perth]

Jeff - They are cheap pavers to begin with. To get them as seconds, the manufacturer must be almost giving them away for free... The width/length seemed okay, they are concrete 'brick' pavers so I am pretty sure they are poured in a mould, so only thickness is likely to be an issue. If there is discrepancy there I'll probably go basketweave as Matt and yourself suggested.

Bill - I'm with you on materials selection. This job was for a good friend of an ongoing regular install/service client. When I was called to quote, she had already bought and paid for the pavers (not delivered yet though). If it had been a random contact from my website or whatever, I would not have quoted. I just felt obligated (I hate having a conscience!) and went ahead with a quote despite my hesitation. It is clear and in writing though that dealing with size inconsistencies is not included in my quoted price.

SCL - Thanks for the tip. I've always used a bit of carpet under to avoid marking/scratching pavers. We also lay a lot of limestone paving (natural and reconstituted) that cracks far too easily without the carpet. We would normally run over the completed job with carpeted plate to help work in jointing sand and help smooth out any minor paver-to-paver inconsistencies. Given that these pavers are concrete though, damage is unlikely to be an issue.

Whilst I am still very hesitant, I am thinking I'll rescind my existing quote and charge now for work completed so far (siteworks etc). I'll then offer the client the actual paver installation at T&M (as per Bill S) and lay them into not-compacted sand and beat the hell out of them with the plate compactor to get them to level out. I'll do a section of a couple square metres first to check out the results before committing to completing the job.

Does this sound like a fair proposition?

[Fine Edge]

Get what $$$ you can and then


RUN!

[Squizzy Taylor]

Hey Tony, I got talked into doing a wall once with some stone that was way worse than seconds. Cut a story short, the client complained, the builder went troppo and I got short changed with bad publicity to boot. In the end it got nasty. The main thing I did wrong (apart from doing the job) was failing to put the variables/inconsistencies of the job in writing.

I'd want the base at 8 blows for the first 300mm before throwing down 25 or 30mm loose and hoping for the best. Seems like a big risk though. Only other way is to sort the pavers as you go. Make a couple of thickness gauges out of ply or something and toss the thicker ones to the end. Might work but will add a lot of time.

[mrgreen_perth]

The client has not asked me to come back to do the job. Included below is the body of the email I sent the following morning (day after leaving the job). She has verbally committed to paying me for work completed so far and materials supplied. I am quite happy to walk away with a payment for materials (at my cost price) and three hours of my time for supervising/instructing Dingo contractor for siteworks and unload/reload at the jobsite.

If I don't get a cheque in the next couple of days I'll be knocking on her door.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Tony



I have attached an invoice for the work done so far.

I have spoken to several people about your paving job. The most common answer I got was 'don't do it'. Their arguments being that it would take a LOT longer than I've estimated (potentially by 2-3 times) and that it would be very frustrating as well.

Those that thought it might be possible, agreed with what I suggested to you yesterday about laying the pavers on a loose sand base then compacting them from above to level them out. (I would normally compact and level the sand base then lay pavers on top)

As I said to you, doing it this way means the base is likely not fully compacted. This leaves potential for sinking in some areas causing dips and humps to form over time as the base settles.

If I were to do it this way. I'd need to do a small section first to see how it looks and how effective (fast) this process is, before committig to doing the whole lot. I would also need to charge the job out based on actual time spent ($75/hr including offsider), as I won't commit to a timeframe for something like this (2nds paving) that could easily blow out the time estimate.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but as I stated in my first visit and quote, we do not lay 2nds pavers with deformities or size inconsistency as I know many problems can arise. 2nds for discolouration (only) is not a problem as the pavers are the same size and it is only surface APPEARANCE that is the problem.

Buyings seconds (size inconsistency) in paving is false economy, as the installation time (ie. costs) generally double or triple if the job is installed professionally. Inconsistent 2nds are only okay for home handyman doing their own paving either with the time to set each paver one at a time, or someone not concerned about level finished job.

Regards