[Stonehenge]

Keith - send me the pic at jeff at groundtradesxchange.com and I'll get it posted.

Paul - congrats on the pond sale.

[Pondman Paul]

Originally posted by Keith N
Very nice looking ponds! I love building them compared to a retaining wall etc. I can't wait to see how my truck lettering will pay off this year. If I could figure out how to resize a pic I would show my latest pond. I'm proud of it since it was my first complete pond start to finish.

That is no joke about the foam gun kit.

Lets see a pic fo your truck lettering

[Barry]

Paul......how did you approach the garden center in reguards to the "liabilities" of having open water source on their property? Or,was it mentioned?? I have been talking with a local mall in reguards to the same type of install and have been told they could not get liability insurance on an "open watersource" on the property. Was just wondering if anyone else had the same thing happen?

[Stonehenge]

Barry - Can you make the water feature a part of their detention/retention pond? That would make a lot of those problems go away - the rules are very different between a water feature and a detention/retention pond.

[Keith N]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
Barry - Can you make the water feature a part of their detention/retention pond? That would make a lot of those problems go away - the rules are very different between a water feature and a detention/retention pond.

I think he might be talking about a pond display in the mall. Like in a mall kiosk.

[Pondman Paul]

Originally posted by Barry
Paul......how did you approach the garden center in reguards to the "liabilities" of having open water source on their property? Or,was it mentioned?? I have been talking with a local mall in reguards to the same type of install and have been told they could not get liability insurance on an "open watersource" on the property. Was just wondering if anyone else had the same thing happen?

I never really discussed liabilities. I built the pond within the local code so there would be no need of a fence and designed it with a gentle slope on one end so any thing that went into the pond could walk or crawl out.

The local building inspecter was more concerned with the size of my sign and its location than the pond. He never even asked how deep the pond was.

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by Keith N
I think he might be talking about a pond display in the mall. Like in a mall kiosk.

Oh - I was thinking outside the mall, where there's most likely a detention pond somewhere.

Pondman Paul - even if the inspector missed something about a pond, it's yer butt in the sling if the pond was supposed to have something and didn't and a person got hurt.

A client of ours lost their child when he drown in a neighbor's water feature. In this case you most likely lose your business, but in your specific situation, you might also lose your home, trucks, and everything else (since you don't have the protection of a business structure - are you making progress with that?).

And this is on top of what would have to be nightmares for the rest of your life knowing your work caused a child's death.

[Dale Wiley]

A client of ours lost their child when he drown in a neighbor's water feature. In this case you most likely lose your business, but in your specific situation, you might also lose your home, trucks, and everything else (since you don't have the protection of a business structure - are you making progress with that?).

This happened at 2 different locations in the greater Portland area in the last 2 years. One is current under litigation and the starting damages was 12 million. Child wandered into an unsecured back yard, fell in the pond and drowned. The parents have named EVERYBODY remotely associated with the property as defendants.

WE had a client threaten to sue us after her Yorkie fell in and could not get out. We failed to provide a way for the dog to get out. The dog was fine, client was a little off.

This is a document we give to every client considering a water feature.

Pond and Water Feature Considerations and Information

This is an informational document meant to inform the client considering purchasing the installation of a pond or water feature by Landscape Specialty Services. This document will be made a part of any contract executed by the client and Landscape Specialty Services for construction of a pond or water feature.

q Client will be provided a copy of the pond / water feature warranty.

q Ponds installed in residential or commercial properties will have open bodies of water that the client is responsible for securing from unauthorized access.
q Ponds can represent potential hazards to children, pets and impaired individuals from falling into the pond or water feature, which could result in injury or death.
q Landscape Specialty Services recommends that the client provide safety measures to prevent un-authorized and / or un-supervised or un- restricted access to the pond / water feature.
q These measures are the responsibility of the client / contract signer to install or to contract to install.
q If the client wishes to have Landscape Specialty services install such features, Landscape Specialty Services will sub contract design of such feature to a licensed architect or civil engineer, and will also subcontract the installation of such security devices-systems to the properly licensed and authorized companies or individuals.

q Landscape Specialty Services will install an auto fill device to keep the water level in the pond consistent.
q Movement of water associated with ponds, waterfalls and water features cause’s evaporation or water even in winter, fall and spring conditions.
q This auto fill device will be connected to any existing sprinkler system main line, or will be connected to a potable water line if no sprinkler system exists.
q If the auto fill device is installed to a potable water line, the installation of an approved back flow device will be required.
q Client will be responsible for the back flow testing fee for the back flow device.

q Client is informed and understands that design of rock placement can be abstract in nature and that an allowance in time for changes to the contractors original placement will be made and indicated in the original contract.
q Any time over this allotment will be executed as a change order and attached to and become a part of the original contract.

q If the contracted process is the renovation of an existing water feature or pond, and that feature contains fish or plants, the removal, storage and care of those fish or plants will be the responsibility of the client / contract signer.

q Client is informed and understands that ponds and water features are dynamic natural environments and will need different levels of maintenance depending upon filtering installed.
q Client is informed and understands they will have to perform these services or contract to have these services performed.
q Landscape Specialty Services assumes NO responsibility for pond conditions unless contracted to a pond / water feature maintenance agreement, or for any incurred or anticipated cost increases in water or electricity.

q By signing below, client / contract signer acknowledges receipt and understanding of this document and the content it presents.
q Client / contract signer agrees to accept all liability for injury of and / or death of animals, people, and / or plant materials associated with the installation and presence of the pond / water feature on the clients / contract signer’s property.
q Client / contract signer agrees to hold Landscape Specialty Services, LLC, Lnadscape Specialty Plants, LLC – Dale Wiley – Diane Wiley and/or any employees and / or sub contractors of Landscape Specialty Services harmless from any liability occurring from the construction of and presence of the pond / water feature on their property.

______________________________________ _______________________________
For Landscape Specialty Services Date

______________________________________ _______________________________
Client / Contract Signer Date

______________________________________ _______________________________
Client / Contract Signer Date

[Pondman Paul]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
Oh - I was thinking outside the mall, where there's most likely a detention pond somewhere.

Pondman Paul - even if the inspector missed something about a pond, it's yer butt in the sling if the pond was supposed to have something and didn't and a person got hurt.

A client of ours lost their child when he drown in a neighbor's water feature. In this case you most likely lose your business, but in your specific situation, you might also lose your home, trucks, and everything else (since you don't have the protection of a business structure - are you making progress with that?).

And this is on top of what would have to be nightmares for the rest of your life knowing your work caused a child's death.

I'm an insured LLC sole proprietor using insured sub contractors but I'm going to have my sub contractors become employees. I've in the process of this now. I set up with my accountant and I can afford to do it now and do it right. My guys will be employees in a few weeks. Thanks for talking me into doing this now rather than waiting until next year.


Paul

[Pondman Paul]

Dale,

Thats a great contract. How do your customers react to it? Any second thoughts?

Paul

[johnkeegan]

Are we basically saying that ANY water feature (deeper than 6") must have a fence around it. I believe I read of one kid drowning in a 18" deep pond.
And, if following local codes is not enough to protect someone from litigation, does that mean even detention ponds should be fenced so a child doesn't wander in? Codes don't say so but it appears that means little in a court of law.
Jeff, did that nice water feature/detention pond you built at the dentist's office have a fence DIRECTLY around it, thus preventing the patients' kids (or dog) from wandering in to it. I believe you said it had very steep sides. Does that mean you're partially liable if someone slips in, panics and can't get out? Even if the contractor is only installing a feature according to an architects design, I guess he would still be caught up in the "big net" of litigation.

[Dale Wiley]

It's basically an information type thing to get the clients thinking. They have to sign it or we will not build our pond. We are asking our contracting liability agent for specific definitions on many items we do. We are starting to do stamped concrete, so we have some things going on there.

Most waivers are not worth the paper they are written on, even if you give up your left and first born child. If there gonna sue,there gonna sue, no matter what they signed. It just hopefully limits our liability, or so says my attorney. If we were named, he said, he would ask for a dismissal from the suit, because the clients proceeded with out a fence.

I have warned the property owners and that would put the burden of responsibility on the property owner.

Our county codes require ALL retention basins built after 1996 to be fenced and LOCKED.

[Stonehenge]

johnkeegan,

For some reason detention/retention ponds fall outside of the fencing rule.

And I suppose we could be listed in a suit if someone were to fall in and drown - nothing can protect you from someone else filing a suitt. On the positive side, the design (size, width, depth) was guided in the largest part by the DNR, so I imagine they would be the biggest target. Essentially we just dressed the area up. But yeah, nothing that says we would never be named in a suit.

[mnglandscaper]

Hey Paul,

Nice work on those ponds!! WE do ponds a little bit too, but not as much as I would like. We also like to use Aquascape company. They are really good when it comes down to customer service and have a real good sysytem. I especially like how they put time into educating the contractors that use their products with hands on and classroom seminars. Again, nice work.

-jesse

[Barry]

[quote]Originally posted by Stonehenge
[b]Oh - I was thinking outside the mall, where there's most likely a detention pond somewhere.

sorry guys........haven't had the opportunity to respond.........yes, the feature was to be installed at the front of the mall........no retention, just for show.