[Crazygator]

Hello all,
Well I am new to this forum, but not new to the green business. I do know some of you, but to those I do not I say "Hello".

I own and operate a lawn and landscape company. I need to continue to look at ways to grow the business. So therefore I pose this question:

How do you get started installing pavers and retaining walls - and more importantly doing this correctly?

Is there places one could attend some type of training to get past the first time jitters, and learn enough to be dangerous? lol


I thank you all for allowing me to join your community and I look forward to learning very much from all you pros out there.

[VoodooChile]

I got started installing pavers when two different clients requested estimates for patios this year. I had enough experience and confidence from throwing flagstone to generate the bids and sell the jobs. Thereafter, my Unilock rep. and GTX provided me with enough knowledge to be dangerous. Here are the results...

[VoodooChile]

Technically, I am certain that this patio was installed well, and will last for many years. This I owe to GTX mostly, and Unilock's regional rep. who answered my pleas for assistance rapidly.

Aesthetically, I dislike the color-- Sandstone-- of the pavers; not at all what I thought I was getting from the product brochures. Secondly, the curve in the path is too tight, and needs at least another course or two. Small consolation that the perennials will fill in and soften the edges.

Ultimately, the client was thrilled, so I shouldn't complain too much, except of course being the first ever paver patio we installed, we didn't make a dime.

Still, I am excited about the potential for this product (pavers), and a crew to install them with minimal manual labor input from me.

Pavers have so many pluses over flagstone, and the newer colors and patterns dovetail nicely with the natural landscaping niche we've carved for ourselves.

Good Luck Crazygator, and be sure to do a "pavers" search through the GTX archive for a load of great advice.

[Crazygator]

Voodoo,
Job looks good. How did you do that design, just as a walk through with the client as to what they said, or from your prior experience and knowing where to lead them?

Did you pencil it or cad draw it or go from the old school "Oh I think it should go about here....yeah that looks right" - the eye ball school?

[prapoza]

Like Voodoo, I started doing them after doing lots of blue stone and brick patios and walkways. I like the product for some applications. Sure is easier to work with being uniform thickness and all. I still prefer the real (stone) to concrete pavers myself though. The look and feel is equaled. Just wish it was as easy to work with as the concrete pavers. They (manufactures) have seminars they even have tests to certify contractors. ICPC? I think?
http://rapoza.com/projects_landscapeconstruction.htm

[Stonehenge]

ICPI has classes in some parts of the country. They can offer some great information as well. You'll find some debates here between me and Rex Mann (who is an ICPI instructor) about what the 'right' way is to do something. Ultimately, if the resulting work is in great shape after years of use, then "you done good."

My first bit of advice would be to find a few guinea pigs - friends or relatives willing to get some work done for the cost of the materials. Install some in your own yard, too. You hit on an important point here - installing is one thing, designing is another. You'll need some practice knowing what is feasible and what isn't before you get too crazy with your designs. Know how wide a walkway ought to be (did you know most residential concrete sidewalks are 5' wide?), how much space you need between the steps leading to patio doors and a patio set, know how big the typical patio set is, and how much room you need around it for your client and their guests to navigate it comfortably...

You can do most of these things in your own backyard, with a little trial and error.

As for installation - run some searches here, and let us know where there are gaps in the info that need filling in. Too much to cover to just start rattling off stuff.

And if I ever put together my manual, I'll send over the part about pavers.

Oh - check with your local suppliers - they often will have retaining wall classes or paver classes in the winter.

[Crazygator]

Looks like I have stumbled into the right forum finally.

Thanks everyone. I look forward to many endless nights of reading and learning.

Does any one offer a mentor program on this site? Just another thought as well.

[Stonehenge]

Y'know, I've been trying to figure out how to make that work, make it worthwhile for the mentor, while at the same time not taking the mentor away from being here. If you can help me figure out how to do that, I'm all in.

[cutntrim]

I would second the suggestion to approach the paver manufacturer/supplier for course information. One other suggestion I might make is to try a simple design for your first go at it. Voodoo has a lot of curves and cuts in that design and that may have contributed to "not making a dime" on it.

Reminds me of the first retaining wall project I did. All curvy and wavy like the customer wanted, and laid with the same Home Cheapo type garden wall block they had had another contractor install in the front yard. Took three times as long to do that job as I thought it would. My next one had a lot more straight lines in it, and went much smoother.

[Stonehenge]

Cutn - I agree, that you should make your first projects ones that are less technical. However, one of the things that I've found is, when it comes to retaining walls, making curved walls is easier than straight, at least when it comes to the final look. If a perfectly straight wall is off any little bit, it's easily noticed, where a curved wall is much harder when looking for flaws.

Though I wonder - Cutn, did yours take longer because you had to cut each block?

[cutntrim]

Ha ha! Pretty damn close! Not too mention that their yard had a SERIOUS drainage problem which required insane amounts of trenching, weeping tile, etc...

Oh, and the access sucked too. It was a real fun project to cut my teeth on.

[BJR]

Here in Aus we have to do a 4 year trade course, then apply to get a structural landscaping licence before we are allowed to do any hard landscaping for home owners. I am surprised that you don't have something similar in the States.

Doing some small retaining walls without much training is OK, I guess. But to do anything over 3ft tall is asking for trouble.

[VoodooChile]

Crazygator,
The client had a conception that wasn't workable, so I "drew" up an alternative with ProLandscape-- a mouse driven design program-- that I presented and sold. The curves of the path in the design weren't as tight, but during execution of the design things tightened up while working around existing but unforeseen features, namely an overflowing gutter that forced the interior edge out from the house to prevent water from pounding and washing out the path. The patio part kept the designed cornucopia shape and looks real good, imho.

The biggest overrun came during excavation, when we went too deep and then spent more time and limepak filling in the hole than anticipated. Next time-- first thing this Spring when #2 is scheduled-- there will definitely a transit (?) on site to set grade exactly; I could've bought one for the overrun on this patio!

Live and learn!

BJR,
To landscape professionally in the U.S., purchase a pick-up and a shovel, and you're ready to wreak havoc!!!

[AZTLANLC]

I really enjoy doing pavers, I have pushed that side of my business as much as possible, my first walkway was done for a customer of mine that had a rental property and wanted something cheap, my former boss use to do that but I wasn't in that crew and my experience was pretty limited to some base preparation, anyways the end result of my first walkway was not really good, the big mistakes I did was to install the edgin on top of the screeding, the cuts were real tiny at some spots, the width too small, not paying too much attention to the grade before digging, we end up using more materials than anticipated, leaving paver flush with the steps, and lots of details, also I didn't know I had to use the temper on the pavers as well.

Picture one and 2 was taken this year is my first paver job I did 4 years ago, the only good thing is that the base was done somehow decently the paver that sunk are the ones on the edge not a lot tough is more noticeable where the mowers goes on top of to cut the strip at the other end, that is also another thing I missed suggest the customer to make a flower bed instead of lawn.

The job took a lot more time than what I expected I think I end up paying the customer for doing it, most due in fact to my lack of experience.

So I started to learn as much as possible about doing things the right way, and thanks to this forum and ICPI, specially to Paul, Rex, Stone and Pelican, now, I feel pretty confident of doing any job, I still have to work up on my designs and some things here and there, but I know that my base preparation is a solid one.

Picture 3 is just to show off my behind
also that I realized that having the right tool meas a lot, I use to dig up with a bobcat (what a mess ) now I use my mini x bobcat mt52.

Picture 4 final job that I'm proud and confident.
Many thanks GTX

P.S. if you need a mentor just post your questions here, I consider the person above mentioned to be my mentors and I see every day many new people in this forum with such a good ideas.

[AZTLANLC]

picture #2