[jwholden]

I went to an estimate a couple weeks ago to discuss replacing this wall. I have never done a stone wall before, but think a project this size may be a good starting point. However, I've got a bit of a problem with attacking this project.

Seeing as the grade runs up hill how would I go about building the wall. Keep all stones horisontal and only make the final, capping coarse, crooked. Or change the angle of the wall to run parallell to the drive. The stairs are going to be removed.

I am figuring on buying approximately 3-4 pallets of good stone and using the existing wall as a backing.

Any discussion on wall building methods would be appreciated.

[chesie]

You need the wall to be level- if not it does not look right to the eye. None of it should look crooked, it should just fade out into the drive.


or


put a step in it which would give a nice effect as well

[chesie]

Are you dry stackng or mortaring? What type of stone?

[Stonehenge]

The retaining wall should not follow any slope - it should always run level. As for stacked stone walls, sometimes it's a good idea to have the front side of each piece a little high, so that it's all leaning a bit into the soil it's retaining. The cap stone would then be level back to front, or possibly set with a little slope front to back to shed water.

And you still want clear stone, perf pipe, etc behind the wall.

[jwholden]

The stone I would use is called old moss around here. It comes in a veneer and thicker size. I would imagine going all veneer or mixing the two sizes. I am thinking of going for a wall with hidden mortar joints and mortar showing between the stones on the cap to keep water out. I also was thinking of using type II mortar for a darker look where the mortar does show.

Here's a dry stack I built last year. I was thinking of a look similar to this but with less 'big' stones and more horizontal thinner ones. The stone would be more in the grey tones and show some moss.

Am I going for too much on my first wall? Would it be best to leave this to a mason? I know I can make it happen, and it will probably take a while, but I'm ready to go for it on a 'small' project.

[chesie]

Jump into it! Look if you use mortar it is ten times easier than dry stack- yet you can acheive the dry stack look with the exact method you described. Do exactly what Jeff said and you will be fine. Mostly it comes down to your eye for what looks nice.


This is a perfect first time stone wall job! Maybe put a boulder in at the sidewalk end of the wall as an anchor, it also makes a nice transition into the wall. Stone walls are fun don't be afraid of them. Just like everything else it make take longer the first time.....but you will have yet another great pic for your portfolio

Kevin

[PSUscaper]

I think the project size is completely within your realm, so don't think you should be worried about subbing it out.

For the steps, think about using large pre-cut stone treads, possiblly 4x6"x12" bluestone, or you can try dry/wet stacking the stone and using a regular 2" thick tread, but this is a little trickier.

Also, plan on cutting the drive, as it looks like it was paved to the exis wall......when you remove it, you will be left with a very jagged edge, and possibly rip a few chunks out when removing the old stones.

When laying the new wall, try to select a flatter, more symetrical stone as I've always found the very irregular moss rock type is more difficult. Use a string line for each couse as a guide.

[jwholden]

I like the boulder idea where the wall ends. EXCELLENT transition.

I do plan on cutting the drive. The existing homeowner/builder wall is very serpentine.

Penn,

Are you talking about using a more 'angular/square' type stone for the wall? I know it would be 100% easier, but hate the look of square rocks. Perhaps I should check the stoneyard for volleyball to basketball size stone with atleast one flat face. If I use a stone similar to the second picture would you still use a string to guide each course or wing it?

Are you talking about using bluestone treads that are 4' long x 6" thick x 12" deep? I'm not going to redo the stairs but would like to file that thought for future reference.

Thanks for the help guys!!!

[Stonehenge]

JW - if you are going to mortar the stones together - will you also be pouring a footing? I would worry about the wall cracking it several places, if it didn't heave together during a freeze.

[VoodooChile]

Many stupid questions...

Folks have dry stacked walls for eons, and plenty are still standing centuries later, sooo...

What's the advantage of mortaring together a wall, especially in areas with frequent freeze/thaw cycles?

As Stone suggests, if John mortars together this wall, won't he need to pour a footing (how deep? below the frost-line?) to eliminate uneven heaving and cracked mortar joints?

Enlighten me!

[Paul]

Those nice stacked retaining walls and field stone walls all move, how much and where is the $64,000 question. Make it so they can't move and over the years they will fail, unless they have a solid base that doesn't move and enough free running gravel behind it so water can't work it's way into the wall.

Some of you don't live in harsh climes, but here just a bit of water can do a great amount of damage. Every year we hear on the news about some building facade that has failed because water got behind it. Glad you don't have to worry about some hunk of building stone falling on some one right? It works the same for walls, if it can free drain, and move just a bit no problems from frost. Allow the base to move and not the upper structure greater stresses are placed on weak joints or stones.......... failure is bound to happen.

[Stonehenge]

In the case of the project we're working on now (see http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/f...3007#post13007 ), we laid a 6" layer of stone down, and poured a 7-8" reinforced slab that is 30-36" wide, all for 2 courses of pavers that stand 6" high, 8" wide. My hope is that making a footing that large, it'll hold together, even if it does move a little. And if I had it to do over, I'd do the same, but lower the whole thing, so the concrete was a bit more underground, and one course of pavers was also underground.

[jwholden]

In my parts 'masons' dig a trench about a foot deep and build the wall on top of bare soil. No footing, no gravel behind, and if lucky a few weep holes near the bottom of the wall.

Just because 'masons' do it does that mean I should do it that way? It comes down to what the guarantee and life expectancy of the project is. How often would a contractor return a call for a problem with a project three years later? (I would).

I am meeting with a 'mason' tomorrow to discuss building a wall for one of the designs I posted on GTX. The 'mason' gave a price for more work than my 'mason' at a lower price. My client is happy he got a great price and says his 'masons' work is great. I cringed when I heard the order of stone was something like 8 or 10 tons for a project that is going to take WAY more than that. I'm also curious how he is going to reuse the crappy bluestone (1") the builder put down to make the curved (paver) walk I designed. Bottom line, this mason had a better price, and too often that is all that matters. I can't wait for the call when the 'mason' tells my client to have the 'landscaper' come and raise the grade two feet so he can build the walk on top of it.

I saw a bluestone patio that my 'mason' recently completed and have serious doubts as to whether I can give his name out again. Either his level was busted or he has been hitting the bottle.

I have the same contempt for 'masons' that most of the world does for landscapers. The only skill you need is a strong back, couple shovels, and pickup truck. Actually, you don't need the truck just have the materials delivered to the site and paid for by the client. Oh, and the less English and interpersonal skills the better, heaven forbid you waste your valuable time discussing the project with a customer.

I recently saw a wall being built by 'masons' who do great work. There is no gravel below or behind the wall. I haven't seen any weep holes in this wall either. However, I know their client is thrilled and loves the workmanship. Would they have gotten the job is they poured a reinforced footing, perf pipe with 3/4" clear behind the wall, and some geotextile behind that. I DOUBT IT!

I apologize for my contempt for 'masons'. I'm jealous that they are making more money than me.

[BRL]

"My hope is that making a footing that large, it'll hold together, even if it does move a little."

Jeff,
I have always been taught that- In the description you write for this, it is not a "footing", simply a "slab" base. A footing means it is deep enough to be below the frost line in the area, & therefore does not move for freeze\thaw cycles (or deep\big enough to support whatever the footing will be supporting - such as a 20 foot deep footing for a building support, steel tower etc.). The footing would be strong enough to support the weight of the wall, and since it is anchored below any frost heaves, any materials secured to the footing will also not move. The ground surrounding the wall\footings will move, but not the structure itself. In the case of a slab, a flexible base is installed underneath that will hopefully absorb the frost heaves, without moving the concrete if it is heavy\big enough.

From my experiences, masons who work in the construction world, are generally used to installing concrete for footings, or installing masonry structures on top of usually correctly installed bases that were installed by other excavating contractors. So many of them do not understand the concepts of the frost heaves, or drainage that we deal with all the time & understand. They are usually one small part of a larger picture, take those 7,000 blocks and make a straight wall here & here. We are generally looking at the property from the point of the big picture because of the changes we are trying to make overall, and because many of us also maintain these properties down the road. We don't try to set things up so there is a lake to deal with next to the driveway everytime it rains, or a wall with a big "bump" in it. But the mason just cares about making that pile or pallet of stone into a wall, because that is what they do. So that is why I believe we see so many "masons" propose to install dry laid type work in the methods that jwholden describes, that we are pretty sure may fail down the road. Some of them get lucky because not every property in a given area heaves as much as any other. Some of the walls or walks fail after the first winter. I always know when I see a "mason" installed paver job because they all put concrete around them for edging, instead of using paver edging, and they mostly have little pieces of concrete all over the place within a few years, and the outsides of the pavers falling out. Obviously there will also be plenty of masons out there that do address all of these issues, you just have to find the right ones.

So the hard part is educating the customers about these issues, and convincing them to do it right. Either way, in the case of this wall, either do it right with footings and make it so the whole wall is solid; or make it flexible, but do that correctly, not like the local masons you have seen.

[Stonehenge]

The more I learn about other industries, the more I realize how much respect a good landscaper deserves. For the most part a landscaper who also handles hardscapes has to have a far greater depth of knowledge on a great many things to be considered good at what they do. I think BRL hit the nail on the head - by the time a mason shows up to work on a project, all the thinking and planning is already done. They need only lay some block straight and plumb, and they have the benefit of varying mud joints to make up for any errors.

And BRL, you may be correct on the terminology of the 'footing'. I would defer to our resident concrete guy Tim on that matter.