[Bill Schwab]

This thread is not to get a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge arguement going by any means. Bluntly put, I have a serious issue with Ford trucks. After loosing numerous Ford automatic transmissions in other trucks, I was backing a trailer in today with my daughter in our 02 F-450. Engine is powerstroke, 444 cubic inch, with the illustrious Ford designed, redesigned and revamped tranny. I stop the truck, unhook the trailer, put it in drive and BLAMMY....Oil everywhere, transmission pan split open, and, the truck won't move. 30,000 miles.

I have to say for a truck that is supposed to be for heavy work, they sure installed a transmission that belongs on a Mustang.

Sure, this time ours is warranteed...But how much is Ford going to give me for the down time? And, how much has thier blunder cost the thousands of contractors who rely on thier trucks for work?

That is why all our pick up and 2 ton series trucks are going to be GM and equipped with the 400 cubic inch Duramax with Allison trannies.

Supposedly, that new 5 speed Ford tranny is a good one, but how many times after you hear that line, and transmissions still explode, do you loose faith?

I hope for Ford's sake, they got this new one right. And I'm not interested in reports from new purcahses, I want to hear about then after 5 winters of plowing heavy snow and working all season long.


By the way, if you scatter any electronic shift Ford truck tranny, it is $2,500.00 to $3,100.00. If you scatter one of the new 5 speeds, it is going to be over $4,000.00.

We put well over 350,000 miles on the GMC K-2500 with an L-80E transmission, while a Ford we had lost 7 trannies in less miles.

I guess I'm venting here...Like all I got to do is wait for repairs of something that should not be broken. It has been one of those days that require the use of beer....

[PSUscaper]

This is one of my problems with both ford & chevy series of HD 4500 and 5500 series trucks. Everything on the truck is beefed up but the trans.

I was looking at a chevy 5500 dump this year.......the problem I have is that the allison they put in a truck with a 17500lb gvrw is the same as the allison in the 3/4 ton allison pickup......something doesn't make sense to me.....the salesmen was telling me that the trans is way overkill for the pickup......I then reminded him that I know guys having trouble with that trans in their pickups, and why would I think a truck with close to twice the gvrw wouldn't. I believe ford is the same way with their 450/550 and their pickup line.

I don't think it is a manufacturer problem......either ford or chevy, if you talk to enough people, you will hear good stories and bad. It seems you are one of the bad for ford.

My only solution is to buy heavier duty trucks with bigger transmissions. The chevy 6500 series, which comes in under cdl versions, has the next level up allison trans in it. I think the ford does the same with the f650.

I just don't like the idea of a dump truck having a 'pickup' truck trans in it.

And I love the 4L80E trans....have it in my 2500hd as do all my friends with older chevy pickups and mason dumps, diesel and gas.....they hold up very well, and if they do go, you can get a replacement installed for under 2k...to me that makes sense. You buy one of these allisons and you are at 5k in a blink.....

[GLAN]

Bill I know how you feel and I kinda had the experience with Chevy.

85 Chevy c20.......2 transmissions in 3 years........Brand new truck at the time.

86 - f350 rack dump. 89 - f450 rack dump....All new each sold 14 years later no problems at all. Only thing was rebuit carbs towards the end on the 86.

95 - F350 pick up..........plowing and V box salter. Used year round. 7.5l gas and C6 3 speed auto. Still using it and no problems other than a couple years back couldn't change plugs so had rebuilt heads installed.........they used crap head gasket. Last month had new intake gaskets installed.....Truck is nice......A/C blows cold 78,000 miles since purchased new.


here's the interesting thing.......I changed over dumps to GMC cab overs W4500's......2000 5.6l gas / automatic 2003 6.0l gas / automatic........so far so good.

Next year I need to add another 4x4 pickup for plowing. I like Ford but they went with a front coil spring.........so I dunno.....I may go GMC?

[GLAN]

Penn makes a very good point......

You mostly hardscape guys it may be best go upsize in truck. You carry what? some 2 or 3 pallets of paver.....2 or 3 yards of sand in one trip.

Guy like me........Grass stinks.........so we dump often.......Carry soil or any other lose material. Yeah I can carry 5 yards short distance and do......Wall rock.......2 pallets.......stone for patio.....what ever I can carry and not feel over loaded.......But I am not doing that work every day........so in reality we run light.

[Bill Schwab]

We have a Mack Granite, tandem axle, air brakes, 425HP Maxidyne engine, and a Peterbuilt tandem axle air brakes, with a 475HP Cat. The Mack has a 10 speed and the Pete has a 13 speed fuller.

This truck that blew was used for intermediate usage, for it's intended purpose.

The issue that Galn had was with the old vacuum shift automatics, and, frankly, if the poblems were with those, they were rare. A Turbo 400 GMC, a C-6 Ford, and a Chrysler 727 Torqueflight were unkillable, and, in the rare occasion they did go, you dump them out, take them in and for $400.00, you got handed an exchange tranny.

These new electronic shift pieces of charm and delight with computer assisted non sense should never have been installed in any vehicle.

I'm pretty frustated right now I guess because now I got one crew who, will have to loose some production hours shifting stuff around when they should be working. That is the silent killer when you have break downs, weather warantee covers them of not. If the service manager talks to me rigth about now, I frankly would hate to be him. He and Ford are screwing up our production, our cash flow, and our net, and for that, some one needs to pay.

[Dale Wiley]

I agree with everything that is said about the new Ford trannies. I know a lot of you guys run newer trucks for various reasons.

The older trannies Bill refers to are exactly as he says. We had one go south after about 120K, took it out, to the trans shop and rebuilt and reinstalled for $ 730. That truck is my estimate, parts runner, fun truck, 71 Ford F 100.

We run 5 speed trans's in the other 2 trucks. Put a clutch in them every 60K or so, 1/2 days down time when we do and no problems after that.

I am currently looking to add another pickup and it will be a Ford F 250 with a 5 speed. Probably 10 or more years old, with over a 100K on it. Fits our business / operations model fine.

I grew up driving farm trucks with 5 and 2 transmissions, fire trucks and fuel tankers with those 10 and 13 speed Roadrangers. The only way to avoid problems with automatics is not to have them.

Mechanical engineering willl tell you that they are inefficent in power transfer of heavy loads beasue they depend upon fricton transfer of power, and that results in a lot of heat, degradation of the friction surfaces, heat degradation of the multitudes of cheap componet seals in the autos, and the use of liquid to effect most power transfer functons in the unit.

Direct connection of power transfer surfaces better utlitizes the engine power and torque, and sure as hell eliminates aobut a billion points for trouble.

I have my boys( 20, 19, 17) capable of driving 10 and 13 speed Roadrangers in 52 GVW rigs. Any of my employees are tested on stick shift vehicles.

[GLAN]

I don't mind having to buy a new truck next year........

I agree with what is being said that the new fangled, overly engineered stuff is junk.........It flat out scares me to order or purchase off a lot.

First of all.............From Fords website.........they are not offering the C6 anymore.......I hope I am wrong.

And GM Allison........that bumps the price up......I just don't recall if that Allison was deisel only. If it is......that is another what? $4,000?


Personaly.........I don't want to play with sticks anymore. Had them in the older dumps.......now it's easier to get any number of my guys to drive having the automatics.........As for snow plowing? I wouldn't want to clutch for 12 or more hours straight.

Yet I agree........Stick is realy a viable option and less hassle down time.......Swap out a clutch and go.

[Mark Oomkes]

I'm not thrilled with all the electronics on vehicles nowadays either.

But, we have one '00 Ford with 4 speed, PS with over 76K on it, plowed with for 4 seasons. The only thing that has gone bad other than normal maintenance is a cam sensor and the 'automatic' hub locks.

We have an '02 4 speed, PS with about 38K and have done nothing to it other than normal maintenance items. It's been used for plowing for 3 seasons now.

This is better than all the Dodges we have had starting in '78 (or before, I can't remember exactly). Our '94 Dodge V10 has had at least 10 trannies in it not to mention recalls for the first 6-7 years on everything down to the seat belt. Just about the biggest POS we have owned.

I know it's a pain to have equipment breakdown, lose production, etc but it is part of business. Stuff happens.

[GLAN]

Dodge......ewww

Every mechanic or plow mechanic I have had the pleasure to talk to have said nothing good about Dodge.

If Ford kept the front leaf springs in their 4x4 I would not hesitate. Now that they have gone to coil.......I guess I can chose between Ford and GM.

BTW GM does option the Allison trans for the larger gas engine. $1,200 option..

[Paul]

The older autos work on vacuum for shifting, a diesel engine does not have any vacuum (no carb no vacuum). Ford now has a shift kit for it's heavy duty auto trans. Last checking it was around $450 plus labor. It does away with lots of problems towing and hauling heavy loads. I don't think that a split pan is a problem with the electronics but a problem with the trans it's self.

As for Dodge, My 97 has 273,000 miles on it and it still runs fine........

I too would have liked to stay with stick trucks but now days finding qualified people to drive them is hard. Even most training companies have autos on their big rigs.

[Pelican]

I've been buying Ford vehicles exclusively since 1982, but that has changed recently. I had a '94 F-350 with the E4OD auto that spit it out 3 days over warranty, but 6000 miles under the mileage limit. Ford wouldn't do anything with it, cost me $2200 and 2 weeks in '97.

My '01 F-350 with auto acted up last winter, Ford wouldn't replace the tranny, they "repaired" it. When I got it back, it still wasn't shifting right, they had it 10 days and covered everything inside and out with tranny fluid. During a snow storm, the tranny light began flashing and the tranny was slipping quite a bit. I figured I'd blow it up this time and kept running it.

It finally made a bang!, and then began working correctly. The only code that came up was a tranny overheat condition, so they wouldn't look at it. I called Detroit to complain with no satisfaction. I know there's something wrong, they wouldn't guarantee it past the warranty so now I hold my breath.

I've had several other issues with both this truck and my '02 F-550 that really has me turned off of Ford. I had multiple problems with a Sable and Taurus including transmission failure, head gaskets, steering racks, A/C failures. Ford wouldn't do anything, i had complained about the shifting since we bought it. We now own a Hyundai auto.

If Dodge were to build a chassis suitable for upfitting, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The Cummins just can't be beat, it was originally designed as an industrial motor for high hour usage. Dodge's new tranny seems to work well with the engine too. I just don't like the floor height of any body you fit to it, they are almost a foot higher than GM or Ford.

[Bill Schwab]

Heres the deal.....

Went to the dealer today to demand he places a rush on this truck. While in there I gleaned a few things...First, the E4OD and the updated POS that preceeded the new Torqueshift they are raving about will explode when backing up a hill pushing a load. This is how mine let go. Nice if someone tells us about that eah?

So, I see a whole lot of 04 and 05 trucks sitting...Tranny work... All equipped with the torqueshift. All in need of replacement.

When this thing gets done, it is getting traded for a 4500 GM truck wit an Allison.

As far as running vaccum from a diesel, the old naturally aspirated 444 cubic inch International/Ford diesel had a bolt on vacuum pump. Weather it had enough suction to shift a tranny, remains a question. Oh yeah, what would ya suppose a complete rebuild on the new torqueshift tranny goes for? I ask this because of the parking lot filled with trucks.... 5 unfortunate soles who thought they were cute by installing Flowmasters and Chips will be paying out of pocket. Cost, $4,600.00 per tranny....

GULP!

[VoodooChile]

So does that mean Bill, if you drive a Ford, don't back up hills under load!? Guess I can quit working for a while, til I get a new truck...

For the record, my 2000 Ford F350 4x4 6.8L V-10 hasn't given me any tranny trouble after 60K of heavy hauling.

[Bill Schwab]

Basically, what the mechanic told me, is, if you back up with that year Ford tranny, the only thing colling the tranny is the fan because there is no forward movement through the radiator. That is exactly what we were doing when our scattered. At 60K, you are getting close. Most have a hard time making 40K. Of the trucks out there, Dodge and Ford have the worst two transmissions in the business. What is it that makes them explode? I have no clue, just that when we all pay the ridiculous amounts we do for vehicles (the average new 1 ton pick up is sitting at 35K) the manufacturers owe us 200,000 trouble free miles. That is the very minimum they owe us. Either that or drop the prices. They also should be required to repay lost revenue for down time. This is one thing Caterpillar simply just gets that truck manufacturers could learn from.

[Mark Oomkes]

I just wish they would mate the Allison with the Cummins or a Cat and put that combination in a truck. Personally, I would go for this in a Ford C&C.

Although, I wish Ford would have kept leaf springs up front.