[Mark Oomkes]

Bill, I just want to clarify. Does\did your truck have a 6.0 w\ 5 speed or 7.3 w\4 speed?

[Bill Schwab]

Ours has the 444 with 4 speed. Third time down in 33,000 miles, 3 trannies. When I go in there are also several 04 and 05 366's with 5 speeds and scattered transmissions. 18 down in one week. Ford won't stand behind them if the owner installs a chip, which basically tells me they can't take more torque than what the engine currently puts out.

[cutntrim]

There's been a lot of discussion over on a snowplowing forum I and some others belong to about the new 2004 F-350 transmissions. Dozens (hundreds?) of plow trucks are blowing up their transmissions due to a manufacturing screw-up by Ford. Now is not the time to buy a new F-350 if you're out looking to buy. Thank god I've got an '04 Dodge and a '04 GMC, or I'd be screwed like many others are (including a buddy of mine who's brand new '04 died the night of our first big storm (Dec.22) and still doesn't have it back.

[Dale Wiley]

One thing that has a lot to do with the failure ratio of these tranny's is the cooling aspect of them.

Depending on the type of truck and how the tranmission is cooled will
affect the performance and life of the trans.

Most of the automatics are cooled by tubes running through the radiator tanks. Diesels run cooler than gas, but if your transmission fluid gets 200 degrees or over, it breaks down and hastens the demise of the trans.

Since most vehicles do not have pyrometers to monitor the trans temp, you may not know if the temp is up there, or even what it actually is.

Another thing a lot of people do is start the engine and drop the trans in gear. That just send a spike of fluid looking for the first weak seal or gasket it can find to blow out.

My wifes Mustang overheated on the way home the other night because of a stuck thermostat and it pegged the gauge. I had her just pull into the dealer ship, had a new thermostat intalled, (a sta flo one, it can not get stuck closed, only open) and had a full trans service done on it.

I just came from my local transmission shop talking to the owner. I am probably going to buy a 93 F 250 4X4 with a AOD tomorrow and wanted him to put a shift kit in it, and install one of his add on cooling kits as well. It won't compelety solve the inheriant problems, but it may make them longer in coming.

If I was abusing my trucks like you plowing guys, I would probably look at a beefed up trans cooling and a pyrometer to monitor the trans temp.

I must have been listening to Schwab too much, because I am starting to think his Class 6 idea with the roll off stuff is pretty damn good. I have tapped myself for this years spending, but in 2006 I am going to look real hard at that concept.

[cutntrim]

The "plow prep" packages on both my trucks included transmission coolers.

[Mark Oomkes]

Thanks Bill. What I am starting to think is that the 5 speed for sure and most likely the 4 speed are not heavy enough for 450\550's. I can go through the list of problems with the tranny's and the excuses we are getting from Ford, but I truly believe this is where the issue is. Our 2 350\7.3\4 speeds have not had any problems other than the one I referred to earlier in this thread. My guess is these tranny's are fine for exactly that.

Our '05 550 went a whole 440 miles, 10 hours plowing and the tranny was cracked. The 4WD shift lever wouldn't stay engaged in 4WD. The 'new and improved' part was worse than the original.

Our '04 550 went 15K miles before the case cracked. This was our fault (supposedly) because we are not coming to a complete stop when shifting forward\reverse and vice versa while plowing. There's a couple problems with this theory: #1 they are wrong because the operator has more experience than anyone else in our company and is not abusing this truck; #2 The service tech told me that there is a built in electronic delay to prevent this from happening when there is any movement sensed on the output shaft; #3 This is the fourth time that truck has been in for 'shudder' when shifting into reverse. I found out on another forum that the Ford hotline told a tech that the reason the snap ring that is causing all these problems was changed in late '04 and '05 was to eliminate 'shudder' when shifting. Sound familiar??

I've spoken with our sales rep and the service advisor and have a bunch of info printed off for the service manager. Supposedly they are going to speak with their zone rep to see what can be done. My thought at this time is someone is going to provide me with a very long extended warranty on these truck as soon as they get a decent transmission in these things.

[johnkeegan]

First thing I would say is, if you MUST buy an American - built truck (Ford, Chevy or Dodge) make sure you get the extended warranty and that the dealer has an excellant, well-staffed service department... you'll need it. If you talk in depth with anyone that uses them as a work truck, they'll eventually admit that considering the cost, they are unhappy. They may start out bragging about their Ford/Dodge/Chevy but with a little egging, they start to spill the beans. The problem probably lies in the fact that the Big 3 are only competing with themselves. If Toyota or Nissan would build a true work truck that would go toe-to-toe with the F350 etc., the quality bar would be raised and the Big 3 would have to respond, just as they were forced to do in the car sector. I hear a lot of contractors complain how they switch from a Chevy to a Ford to a Dodge then back to a Chevy then... You'll never hear a Toyota owner say they'll switch. And those Toyota trucks are made in Tennesee by Americans.
P.S.- If you're in the market for a 350/450/550 consider the Isuzus. Do a detailed side by side comparision. Due to their design they are much more manuverable and can carry a greater load (because of their lower unlaiden weight). I've got two in the 17,5000 GVW range and have none of the problems listed here. Though, neither has an automatic transmission. And when my '86 F350 finally dies I'm going back to the Isuzu dealer for another.

[Bill Schwab]

Dale:

Any of the new trucks have transmission temp guages. The 450 does, our 4500 series do, and the 3500 GM pick does. GM also has an hour meter which is really handy for service metering if you are doing low milage rough service work like plowing.

As far as you purchase of a '93 Ford. That will have the E4OD automatic in it. The same one that has no reverse pump, something to keep in mind when you have to back up. Chances are that transmission has had all the upgrades. To start, they had an aluminum carrier which scattered under load. They updated that, and the center carrier was designed with a bushing, that failed. They updated that so it had a bearing. The next problem ran forward to the torque converter. Because of the small input shaft size, they had vibration issues which either destroyed the torque converter, or the input shaft, or both.
If you have one that had all the updates, there were still problems, but, the tranny had some capabilties it did not have with all the inferior parts. Ford designed it with aluminum in search of better fiuel milage because of federal regs. Fuel milage and trucks don't go in the same sentence. If they lighten up the truck, it is not getting good milage in comparison to a car, simple as that. One last thing about E4OD trannies, when they scatter, it is best to install a huge external cooler and bypass the internal radiator cooler. The particles enter the cooler, stick there, and will erode the new transmission within 10,000 miles.

I agree with Mark. I think that new TS tranny might work fine for a pick up truck. Or if they are going to to it, do it like GM did and put a heavy series tranny into a pick up knowing it is overkill.

The issue I have with all this is down time. For example, when our Cat went down under warrantee, Cat gave me a new machine to use until ours was done...What is Ford going to do for you with the down time?


John:

Isuzu trucks in our application are not near heavy enough, won't carry the loads we do at highway speeds pulling up the grades we are pulling. If we worked along the coast every day, they would be fine, but in the mountains, if you can hot 35 under load, you are pushing the envelope. We have several local competitors who had Toyota fleets, and went back to GM and Ford. The Toyotas for thier purpose, was not getting the job done. No ability to carry much of anything at all.
Basically, they make a homeowners truck. And though thier engines seem to run for a long period of time, the bodies and frames rust in half.

[Bill Schwab]

Mark:

I left you out of the post...Sorry... Clearly, Ford is LOOKING for reasons to void warrantees here. Like you or your guys who have worked for you for HOW LONG??? are doing a slam and stop with your trucks...I'm not buying it, and, KNOWING your trucks were going to be plowing, would one not assume a little of this would be designed for?

Whatever you do, don't put in a chip. The new computers can document when any connections were broken and what was placed in line at the time it was. This is for the guys who played cutsies and installed a chip, blew a tranny or driveshaft, then reinstalled the factory chip.

18 trannies gone in one week at north county ford. Anyone that had a chip is an owner pay....GULP...$40,000 truck, payment of $700 plus, and now a $4,600.00 trannny bill...

[Mark Oomkes]

Exactly right Bill. None of these trucks has enough HP for the type of work we need them for and we live in the flat lands. I wasn't aware that Isuzu had a 17,500 GVW, but still not enough torque and HP for plowing snow.

John, I agree 1000% with you. The Big 3 deserve to lose every bit of market share that they do. The adversarial relationships they develop with their suppliers to lower costs while not looking where the real problem is--them, the lack of quality control and engineering, etc, etc. I would love to see the Japs get into the 350-550 truck market so the Big 3 would get there crap together.

[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by Bill Schwab
Mark:

I left you out of the post...Sorry... Clearly, Ford is LOOKING for reasons to void warrantees here. Like you or your guys who have worked for you for HOW LONG??? are doing a slam and stop with your trucks...I'm not buying it, and, KNOWING your trucks were going to be plowing, would one not assume a little of this would be designed for?

Whatever you do, don't put in a chip. The new computers can document when any connections were broken and what was placed in line at the time it was. This is for the guys who played cutsies and installed a chip, blew a tranny or driveshaft, then reinstalled the factory chip.

18 trannies gone in one week at north county ford. Anyone that had a chip is an owner pay....GULP...$40,000 truck, payment of $700 plus, and now a $4,600.00 trannny bill...

They said they would warrantee it this time, but maybe not next time. I told our sales rep that I could lemon law this thing and he agreed. The problem is we have the plows, dump box, hydraulics all installed and short of suing Ford, I wouldn't get any of that money back. I'll only be happy when the dealer or Ford gives me an extended warranty on both of these trucks, but I'm not holding my breath.

[johnkeegan]

Mark, I definitely would not want to plow snow with an Isuzu, they're not 4 wheel drive. (P.S.-I plowed for 20 years with mostly Fords and I never lost a tranny. Then again, I was always the driver...) But I think you and Bill may be confusing your Isuzus. The ones that are rated 17,500 to over 26, 500 are not to be confused with the little 10,000 GVW models. I've had plenty of times I've carried 5 tons of material while towing a Bobcat up and down hills. (P.S.- They come with a standard exhaust break). I don't know if an F450 could do that day in and day out. From the comments in this thread, I wouldn't bet on it.
Bill, I also agree with you on the rusting Toyotas. But in fairness, I believe that's a problem with the older models. I look at the 7-8 year-old models driving around now and they seem to have perfected their rust-proofing. And I agree that currently Toyota is not producing true work trucks(i.e. F350+). My point is, IF they did and they brought the same commitment to quality they would severely damage the Big 3's truck cash cow.

[Mark Oomkes]

Actually, I believe it probably could as long as you don't back up under load or plow with it. They didn't have these problems until winter started and the plowing began. I think there are some deeper issues with this transmission that they are not admitting yet.

I agree wholeheartedly that anybody with quality would\could\should give the Big 3 a run for their money. Right now, I'd buy one just because I'm so ticked at them.

[Bill Schwab]

You know, what really gets me going? Anytime ANY manufacturer makes a product and refuses to admit the screw up. To name a few. Kawasaki, (engines blowing up after a week, then back tracking on replacement) Ford motor company, (transmissions on and out of warrantee) Echo, (engines seizing, and being told there was no oil in the gas when in fact there was) Honda, camshaft spinning through the engine case, and being told I overode the governor) GM (brakes on the '88 through '99 trucks were pathetic and told that was the way they were designed)

I as a human know that we are not at all perfect. I also know that if we are in business, we are ENTITLED to our profits or why the heck even be there....

And, anytime we have goofed, or if a person had an issue with ANYTHING we did, we addressed the issue. If we screwed up, we took care of it. Now, lets examine Fords transmissions. Arguably, the worst in the business. Why instead of making one that would work, did they insist on "improving" what they screwed up?

If they did as Caterpillar does and gave you a vehicle to do your work with until the one you bought is repaired, I have little I can say.

Mark, in our state, any improvement you have in a vehicle if lemon lawed, will be compensated for. Alarms, dump bodies, plows, etc. They have to write you a check for it all. The issue is, you have to file suite first, and, it usually takes 12 weeks to settle out. How long is winter? This one could be a long for you brother!

[Mark Oomkes]

I'll have to give my lawyer a call and see if there is that provision in Michigan. Maybe that would help their thinking a little.